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  #281  
Old 16.04.2014, 01:35
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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This means that Russia will take over one of those East Ukrainian cities within 20 days, to get the required accommodation.

Both Ukraine and Russia have enough food. But the agricultural organisation is still fairly bad, more than 20 years after the end of communism
some homework for you: http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/b...occupy-ukraine
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  #282  
Old 16.04.2014, 01:41
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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The seaport of Saloniki would be a very good place for the Mediterranean Eskadra. If you draw a line from Rostov-on-the-Don to Sevastopol and continue the line you end up in Sofia. And in case of the Ukraine, Mr Putin has some limited objectives. aimed primarily at securing the link between Sochi and Sevastopol

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Putin wants to build up the fleet to something different from now.
You must be joking! Continue your line and you might end up in the Sandwich Islands.
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  #283  
Old 16.04.2014, 07:18
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Help, help I'm being repressed...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q58nTiZrJ0
I think it's the second or third time when I saw this video and was still LOL. Brilliant!
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  #284  
Old 16.04.2014, 13:06
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Kiev authorities have started a military operation against anti-government protesters in eastern Ukraine.

Some Ukrainian tanks have reportedly switched sides and are now flying Russian flags Soldiers appeared reluctant to go into battle against anti-government activists. A video features the Kramatorsk crowds loudly chanting “Army with the people” and applauding the soldiers as they were leaving their tanks


Yesterday was not as peaceful. Four people were killed and two others injured when troops seized an airfield in Kramatorsk, which had earlier been controlled by protesters.
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  #285  
Old 16.04.2014, 17:21
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Kiev authorities have started a military operation against anti-government protesters in eastern Ukraine.

Some Ukrainian tanks have reportedly switched sides and are now flying Russian flags Soldiers appeared reluctant to go into battle against anti-government activists. A video features the Kramatorsk crowds loudly chanting “Army with the people” and applauding the soldiers as they were leaving their tanks


Yesterday was not as peaceful. Four people were killed and two others injured when troops seized an airfield in Kramatorsk, which had earlier been controlled by protesters.
Leonie, media is a powerful weapon these days but let's wait "a bit" and we'd might be surprised at how things have actually happened, one day...

On another note, NATO announcement

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/opinions_109231.htm

Frankly, I can't believe how things continue to escalate. It's horrible.

Last edited by greenmount; 16.04.2014 at 17:53.
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  #286  
Old 16.04.2014, 18:16
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Leonie, media is a powerful weapon these days but let's wait "a bit" and we'd might be surprised at how things have actually happened, one day...
I wonder what the source is, too. I would suspect local people, even when abroad, probably have better access than us, in any case.

But we are getting the same news over there in Prague, where the Ukrainian community is the biggest minority in the country.

I cross fingers for the innocent civilians. And realize, Velvet Revolution was a rarity.
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  #287  
Old 17.04.2014, 00:40
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

How bad it must be in Ukraine that some want to Russia. Or are they brainwashed? Looks like memories of The Famine got wiped out from the collective memory.
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  #288  
Old 17.04.2014, 02:32
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

I hope I'm wrong but historians may look back and say this was the start of World War III
by Edward Lucas
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  #289  
Old 17.04.2014, 03:56
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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How bad it must be in Ukraine that some want to Russia.
Russia means higher pensions, more money for schools, business with industry, stability in energy prices and higher salaries - in short: an upgrade - to the point that Crimeans' only fear at the moment is inflation when introducing the ruble.
Furthermore, culture and history do mean a lot to some people. It's irrational, I know, but it is. I doubt that isolated countries like the UK or the US will ever understand the concept of "neighbour". On top of it, Ukraine is a country "mal n" - French for "it didn't start on the right foot anyway so it can only be a long term pain".
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  #290  
Old 17.04.2014, 08:37
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Funny, I had the same thoughts. Hitler with the Sudetes...
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  #291  
Old 17.04.2014, 16:56
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Funny, I had the same thoughts. Hitler with the Sudetes...
Don't remind me Munich. The tragedy of my homeland. I don't know, though, as Faltrad mentioned, big nations have their own, specific ways to treat others. I would definitely include Russia and France, in the big nation stigma.

Veni, vidi, vici.
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  #292  
Old 17.04.2014, 17:10
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I don't know, though, as Faltrad mentioned, big nations have their own, specific ways to treat others.
I won't get more popular here, but I must say that I just don't buy propaganda from neither Russia nor Nato. To me, it's no a remake of Sudetenland but of Bosnian war. France and Germany being each on their side, I can compare.

The US creates an eastern monster regularly, approx. every 7-9 years. Nato needs it to justify its existence. The goal is in fine to make European defense impossible and keep the key role in American hand. The Kiev protests, like the so called orange revolution, were financed by the US. If you want to know how it works, you can also ask Taci (remember the UK guy?) or Izetbegovic (remember the Bosnian president in Dayton?).

People in Ukraine protested against corruption and poverty, not against any party in particular, they were all on the protesters' list. What it became is what it was made by people paying for it. Europe is out of the game, Russia is the eastern monster the US needs it to be, corruption hasn't change at all… everybody got what they wanted but the original protesters. Cruel irony.

To be fair, the US is the western monster Putin needs it to be for internal use. But that's another issue. I just don't want you to think I like Russia, I really don't like this one, but not for the reasons the western propaganda wants me to dislike it. It's called nuances.
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  #293  
Old 17.04.2014, 17:28
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I won't get more popular here, but I must say that I just don't buy propaganda from neither Russia nor Nato. To me, it's no a remake of Sudetenland but of Bosnian war. France and Germany being each on their side, I can compare.

The US creates an eastern monster regularly, approx. every 7-9 years. Nato needs it to justify its existence. The goal is in fine to make European defense impossible and keep the key role in American hand. The Kiev protests, like the so called orange revolution, were financed by the US. If you want to know how it works, you can also ask Taci (remember the UK guy?) or Izetbegovic (remember the Bosnian president in Dayton?).

People in Ukraine protested against corruption and poverty, not against any party in particular, they were all on the protesters' list. What it became is what it was made by people paying for it. Europe is out of the game, Russia is the eastern monster the US needs it to be, corruption hasn't change at all everybody got what they wanted but the original protesters. Cruel irony.

To be fair, the US is the western monster Putin needs it to be for internal use. But that's another issue. I just don't want you to think I like Russia, I really don't like this one, but not for the reasons the western propaganda wants me to dislike it. It's called nuances.

I quote from a link that somebody posted earlier "Putin has presented the Ukrainian leaders with an impossible choice. Either they consent to the dismemberment of their country. Or they fight a war they cannot win. "
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2605578/Edward-Lucas-I-hope-Im-wrong-historians-look-say-start-World-War-III.html#ixzz2z9aFJra4

Do you agree with this quote or do you have a different view?
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  #294  
Old 17.04.2014, 17:38
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

It depends what one means with "dismemberment". Without Crimea, it is impossible for the Russianspeaking part of the Ukrainian people to ever be part of power. Election maths is cruel because the front line has been totally immobile since independence. By taking Crimea for reasons not as good as Putin says but not as bad as the west says, there is no alternative than to turn Ukraine into a federation. The federal system the USSR-way has tradition and works not that bad in such complex regions of the world. Kiev will then be as pro-whatever they want, they will not impose anything on everybody, they'll have to negotiate and find a modus vivendi all the time again and again. The city of Kiev even reflects all the contradictions and mixes of the country so it is not a bad capital at all.
Federation is not a dismembrement in the Russian world. It's life.
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  #295  
Old 17.04.2014, 17:50
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I won't get more popular here, but I must say that I just don't buy propaganda from neither Russia nor Nato. To me, it's no a remake of Sudetenland but of Bosnian war. France and Germany being each on their side, I can compare.

The US creates an eastern monster regularly, approx. every 7-9 years. Nato needs it to justify its existence. The goal is in fine to make European defense impossible and keep the key role in American hand. The Kiev protests, like the so called orange revolution, were financed by the US. If you want to know how it works, you can also ask Taci (remember the UK guy?) or Izetbegovic (remember the Bosnian president in Dayton?).

People in Ukraine protested against corruption and poverty, not against any party in particular, they were all on the protesters' list. What it became is what it was made by people paying for it. Europe is out of the game, Russia is the eastern monster the US needs it to be, corruption hasn't change at all… everybody got what they wanted but the original protesters. Cruel irony.

To be fair, the US is the western monster Putin needs it to be for internal use. But that's another issue. I just don't want you to think I like Russia, I really don't like this one, but not for the reasons the western propaganda wants me to dislike it. It's called nuances.
I understand. And know you aren't trying to advertize Russia here at all.

It's funny I have accidentaly posted in a wrong thread, just because you have mentioned mob. I think mob as we know it, and mob over there, are two different things. For us to consider a concept of mob, there must be some sense of normalcy, lack of corruption. I do not sadly think that exists over there in Russia.

I wouldn't overestimate US involvement, they have enough on their plate as it is, not vested in my opinion, and practically zero reasonable leadership in order to have any strong stance in this no matter what media presents. Oops.

I would be more open to see Russia in a better light, but we have lived what we have lived. Things do not change so fast. It seems manageable to us, but friends who lived in Ukraine alrealy had to leave for lack of safety, 15 years ago, and apparently is hasn't changed. Russia, similar situation.
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  #296  
Old 17.04.2014, 17:59
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I wouldn't overestimate US involvement.
And I wouldn't underestimate it. Why do you think Putin threw out NGOs? The orange revolution was preceded by the rose revolution in Tbilissi and followed by an attempt of a red revolution in Moscow. Don't expect the Russians to be naive or forgetful. Putin has the Russian people behind him big time. It would be pure dishonesty and cheap rhetorics to say they are blind. They know d@mned well why they want Putin. If the hope of a corrupt-free Ukraine goes through Putin in the mind of half of the Ukrainian population, it's because they are perfectly able to compare corruption in both country. Russia is as bad as it is, but it wins against Ukraine easy.
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  #297  
Old 17.04.2014, 18:10
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

I don't know how popular I'll go either (never really cared), but with Crimea is clear. A Russian majority who'll be treated like a minority otherwise. We've seen that before, it's old, the Habsburgs were masters at this. Not a good thing.
So its independence it was necessary in my view, I don't care about Russian other interests. What is happening now it's bad, especially since Putin promised not to touch the rest of Ukraine.
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  #298  
Old 17.04.2014, 18:15
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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And I wouldn't underestimate it. Why do you think Putin threw out NGOs? The orange revolution was preceded by the rose revolution in Tbilissi and followed by an attempt of a red revolution in Moscow. Don't expect the Russians to be naive or forgetful. Putin has the Russian people behind him big time. It would be pure dishonesty and cheap rhetorics to say they are blind. They know d@mned well why they want Putin. If the hope of a corrupt-free Ukraine goes through Putin in the mind of half of the Ukrainian population, it's because they are perfectly able to compare corruption in both country. Russia is as bad as it is, but it wins against Ukraine easy.
I am not sure. Not for ethical reasons, that's clear. If things are manageable, it might be because of more cash, more army links, more ego. Leadership in giant areas is all about egos. If it is not, the power is efficiently compartmenlized, like CA.

Less chaos, under Putin, does not mean better times. We have had it 1948. All it meant was slowly bleeding out the region, for the Big Brother. I fear for Ukraine. And cannot see corrupt free, under Putin.
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  #299  
Old 17.04.2014, 18:27
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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And cannot see corrupt free, under Putin.
Come on, nobody said Russia is corrupt free. But Russians remember the Eltsin years very clearly and do you know what: they positively prefer the Putin years. Same for Crimea. Frankly, the west are the only one being surprised. The only reason Crimea staid Ukrainian so long is the political balance Moscow wanted to keep. Facing foreign founded revolutions regularly, Putin said stop and did a very sensible thing from a Russian perspective: keeping the Nato out of the Ukraine. One can't blame them for that, sorry, even if one loves the Nato. I personally don't care, but there is no reason for the Russian president not to take care of his country's interest. Obama does the same, Merkel too (for Hollande, I'm not sure). Normal. It doesn't put a smile on Washington's face. Why should they care?
The US will try to destabilize Minsk next. Good luck with that.
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Old 17.04.2014, 18:34
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Come on, nobody said Russia is corrupt free. But Russians remember the Eltsin years very clearly and do you know what: they positively prefer the Putin years. Same for Crimea. Frankly, the west are the only one being surprised. The only reason Crimea staid Ukrainian so long is the political balance Moscow wanted to keep. Facing foreign founded revolutions regularly, Putin said stop and did a very sensible thing from a Russian perspective: keeping the Nato out of the Ukraine. One can't blame them for that, sorry, even if one loves the Nato. I personally don't care, but there is no reason for the Russian president not to take care of his country's interest. Obama does the same, Merkel too (for Hollande, I'm not sure). Normal. It doesn't put a smile on Washington's face. Why should they care?
The US will try to destabilize Minsk next. Good luck with that.
Hahahahah, you made me laugh with Hollande, seriously. You are on an anti French trip lately...cmon. I miss a proper mousse ou chocolate, I could have some right now.

Hmmmm... According to my sources, Putin did not have too much difficulty keeping NATO out of Ukraine, tbh. And, West is not surprised. They expected it. It's humorous for me to say "they". I do feel for my Ukrainian people, though. And have a hard time to joke about this. I know they are glued to Skype back home in CZ. 24/7.

I would lie to say I am not glad military operations are getting so expensive these days. It's all about research. Not volume any longer.

I would hate to see another Munich. But whatever involvement other parties might have, it will one way or another turn against them, if only financially. I am not sure how we managed so peacefully, in '89. But it has to come from a unified nation, not a split one. And ethnically, that is a bit hard to expect, right now, over there.
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