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02.03.2022, 08:58
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | This is really great news, I am hoping that the way to the border will be fast. Waiting for any news from our relatives, hope they make it to any border. | | | | | Unfortunately the way to any border is very dangerous now as I could gather from what refugees say. They could travel for days till they reach a border, the queues are so long they abandon their cars and walk the rest of the distance....imagine, women holding small kids for km long....there was a Ukrainian lady in Vama Siret that had wounds because of the cold and holding her baby in her arms for days long (child was crying all along). And like her case there are thousands these days.
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02.03.2022, 08:59
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Sorry to pick on your post, but I have to make this comment. Stalins politics in Eastern Europe were brutal, dishonest and long and fully agree should not be forgotten. BUT Stalin was allowed and even enabled by Churchil and the West to do all that as the West saw Eastern Europe as a safety belt between itself and Russia.
The EXACT SAME strategic mistake is being done by the West now and if there's ONE silver lining to the war in Ukraine is if it's a wake up call to the West that East Europe is no safety belt. East Europe WANTS and NEEDS to be part of the normal world. | | | | | excellent post, thanks
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02.03.2022, 09:12
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Unfortunately the way to any border is very dangerous now as I could gather from what refugees say. They could travel for days till they reach a border, the queues are so long they abandon their cars and walk the rest of the distance....imagine, women holding small kids for km long....there was a Ukrainian lady in Vama Siret that had wounds because of the cold and holding her baby in her arms for days long (child was crying all along). And like her case there are thousands these days. | | | | | It feels so helpless like the world is falling apart….
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02.03.2022, 09:18
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | It feels so helpless like the world is falling apart…. | | | | | I know, that is what I think when I see all those blocks of flats bombed and destroyed, I know how hard people work in these parts of the world for everything they have, how many humiliating jobs abroad they might have taken to renovate their homes, buy things so that their children could have better conditions. It strikes a very painful chord. Let alone historical buildings, cultural monuments...it is people's lives and homes and everything else that will take a few generations to cover the costs. I think in very simple, humane terms these days. I don't care anymore about politics. We should feel blessed here for the lives we have.
Putin, stop this senseless war NOW.
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02.03.2022, 10:00
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Sorry to pick on your post, but I have to make this comment. Stalins politics in Eastern Europe were brutal, dishonest and long and fully agree should not be forgotten. BUT Stalin was allowed and even enabled by Churchil and the West to do all that as the West saw Eastern Europe as a safety belt between itself and Russia.
The EXACT SAME strategic mistake is being done by the West now and if there's ONE silver lining to the war in Ukraine is if it's a wake up call to the West that East Europe is no safety belt. East Europe WANTS and NEEDS to be part of the normal world. | | | | | Most of eastern Europe is part of the "normal" world now. Aside from Moldova and Ukraine, at least on paper the rest of eastern Europe is fully integrated into western organisations and institutions. Belarus and some former Yugoslavian states aside, but there are reasons for that.
Also think people need to take a deep breath. The western actions of the Cold War were not a strategic mistake, because ultimately they came through. The issue is that they took time. As bad as what is going on in Ukraine is, we need to avoid this escalating into something bigger. Although it took time, the collective response has been unexpectedly robust in my opinion.
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02.03.2022, 10:16
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Nyon
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Most of eastern Europe is part of the "normal" world now. Aside from Moldova and Ukraine, at least on paper the rest of eastern Europe is fully integrated into western organisations and institutions. Belarus and some former Yugoslavian states aside, but there are reasons for that.
Also think people need to take a deep breath. The western actions of the Cold War were not a strategic mistake, because ultimately they came through. The issue is that they took time. As bad as what is going on in Ukraine is, we need to avoid this escalating into something bigger. Although it took time, the collective response has been unexpectedly robust in my opinion. | | | | | It has escalated. The only other dictatorship in Europe has joined Russia.
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02.03.2022, 10:20
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | It has escalated. The only other dictatorship in Europe has joined Russia. | | | | | I thought Turkey was in NATO?
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02.03.2022, 10:41
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
Moscow stock exchange closed again today for the third day, some sources claim it will be closed for the whole week.
Russian stocks are increasingly untradeable as more stock exchanges around the world suspend them amid the Ukraine war. A real lack of information about which stock exchanges, how long this suspension will last, and exactly which stocks are suspended.
Indications are the value of Russian stocks will crash down when markets reopen.
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02.03.2022, 11:04
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | I thought Turkey was in NATO? | | | | | Turkey’s in Europe? (Except for Eastern Thrace (3%))
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02.03.2022, 11:08
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
A couple of "what I reckon" observations from my side:
Putin is an experienced leader and military man, I don't think he thought this would be an easy war and a quick Ukraine rollover. He would have surely calculated several military scenarios.
The advice by Ukrainian authorities (if true) to get civilians to make Molotov cocktails and resist the Russians is totally irresponsible.
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02.03.2022, 11:08
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
The talks might continue tonight. Please let them ceasefire.
From 20 min:
Russia has declared its readiness for renewed negotiations with Ukraine on Wednesday evening. « Our delegation is ready to continue talks», Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said in Moscow on Wednesday. The Russian delegation will «be on the ground in the early evening», Peskov said, without, however, naming the venue for the negotiations. He said he hoped Ukrainian negotiators would also appear.
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02.03.2022, 11:10
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | The talks might continue tonight. Please let them ceasefire.
From 20 min:
Russia has declared its readiness for renewed negotiations with Ukraine on Wednesday evening. « Our delegation is ready to continue talks», Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said in Moscow on Wednesday. The Russian delegation will «be on the ground in the early evening», Peskov said, without, however, naming the venue for the negotiations. He said he hoped Ukrainian negotiators would also appear. | | | | | Somehow I have the feeling this is only a reason to get their logistics back in place and be better prepared for the next attack......
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02.03.2022, 11:15
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | The advice by Ukrainian authorities (if true) to get civilians to make Molotov cocktails and resist the Russians is totally irresponsible. | | | | | I also feel that the civilians have to try to take care of themselves and their families and survive. It’s the same as when taken by terrorists or attacked by the armed robbers.
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02.03.2022, 11:18
|  | Roastbeef & Yorkshire mod | | Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Neuchâtel
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Turkey’s in Europe? (Except for Eastern Thrace (3%)) | | | | | Turkey has been negotiating to become part of the EU for a while now so I guess it considers itself to be pretty European these days.
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02.03.2022, 11:26
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
Russian airlines Aeroflot has sent me an email today reminding me that I still have a voucher from 2020 Covid-canceled flights and I might want to use them. They were not informed that they are totally isolated?
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02.03.2022, 11:29
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: BL
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | The western actions of the Cold War were not a strategic mistake, because ultimately they came through. | | | | | Yes, it was a strategic mistake. Sorry about the long post
First of all, "it came through" not because the West left Eastern Europe to Russia. There was no devious plan in which the USSR will fail because Eastern Europe is controlled by Moscow. The West left Eastern Europe because it was tired of WWII and didn't want to confront Stalin at this time.
Second, Eastern Europe was providing all of its recourses to Moscow for 50 years which has enabled the soviets to survive much longer than anyone anticipated.
Third, 50 years is 2 generations which were raised since children to "love" the liberators and a great deal of these people are still alive and voting. They tend to vote pro-socialist / pro-Russian parties. History has been re-written and the East is still in an identity crisis mode. One can't erase 50 years of thorough propaganda and brain-washing with a few years of democracy. It takes time AND EFFORT.
Generally, Eastern Europe is historically and culturally much closer to Berlin, Rome and Paris than it is to Moscow. Hungary was part of the Habsburg Empire, Czech gave the first Protestant, Poland became Christian in 966 and has been integrated into the European culture since then, Bulgaria became Christian in 864 and was fighting the Ottoman conquest until it was able to and fell.
This was CENTURIES before Russia was even something close to a state. Russia was barely free from the Mongol horde when Jan Huss was burned at the stake, Russia adopted it's alphabet from Bulgaria in the 9th century and it's Christianity from the Greeks in the 10th.
Eastern Europe, with a few exceptions, does not belong and never belonged to a "natural" Russian sphere of influence, it has always belonged to what we call the West.
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02.03.2022, 11:40
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Turkey has been negotiating to become part of the EU for a while now so I guess it considers itself to be pretty European these days. | | | | | Turkey was officially recognised as a candidate for full membership on 12 December 1999, and didn’t make it to EU since. They might be feeling not that welcome.
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02.03.2022, 11:46
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Somehow I have the feeling this is only a reason to get their logistics back in place and be better prepared for the next attack...... | | | | | Yeah, and yet I somehow hope that a "miracle" happens and this war will cease.
Every day of war means more lost lives, more material destructions, more people dispelled from their homes, more global economic uncertainty, more general anxiety....and the list can go on.
One can only hope. | This user would like to thank greenmount for this useful post: | | 
02.03.2022, 11:49
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Turkey was officially recognised as a candidate for full membership on 12 December 1999, and didn’t make it to EU since. | | | | | They're a pre-dominantly Muslim nation run by a strongman Islamist dictator in charge of one of the most powerful militaries in the ME. They will likely never get into Europe no matter how many favours they do the EU.
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02.03.2022, 11:52
|  | Roastbeef & Yorkshire mod | | Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Neuchâtel
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Turkey was officially recognised as a candidate for full membership on 12 December 1999, and didn’t make it to EU since. They might be feeling not that welcome. | | | | | True.
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