Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #4121  
Old 09.03.2022, 11:50
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 15,479
Groaned at 304 Times in 204 Posts
Thanked 19,718 Times in 8,307 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Russians waiting in massive queues after McDonald's announced closure of all 850 restaurants in Russia

McDonalds signaled both the beginning and the end of democracy in Russia.

This was in 1990

Can someone explain the point of this to me? It's not like it will be sticking it to Putin so that he doesn't get to enjoy a Big Mac. Is this just virtue signalling from MCD, or is there some plausible way that this helps?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #4122  
Old 09.03.2022, 12:02
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 5,303
Groaned at 103 Times in 94 Posts
Thanked 7,752 Times in 3,641 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Can someone explain the point of this to me? It's not like it will be sticking it to Putin so that he doesn't get to enjoy a Big Mac. Is this just virtue signalling from MCD, or is there some plausible way that this helps?
It helps McDo. There's no point in keeping the business running if revenue cannot be taken out of Russia due to the currency controls ordered by Putin.

Whatever virtue signalling means, I guess that's not the cause. It's just that Putin killed the business model with the currency controls.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #4123  
Old 09.03.2022, 12:05
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 3,988
Groaned at 381 Times in 271 Posts
Thanked 8,466 Times in 3,608 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Can someone explain the point of this to me? It's not like it will be sticking it to Putin so that he doesn't get to enjoy a Big Mac. Is this just virtue signalling from MCD, or is there some plausible way that this helps?
There is huge investor and stakeholder pressure on any multinational business with activity in Russia now. Companies are between pushed to divest or close Russia business or risk losing business in the West. Difficult to see what good this achieves, but another step back to the Soviet Union.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank komsomolez for this useful post:
  #4124  
Old 09.03.2022, 12:19
Castro's Avatar
à la mod
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ZG
Posts: 5,840
Groaned at 129 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 17,648 Times in 5,603 Posts
Castro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
There is huge investor and stakeholder pressure on any multinational business with activity in Russia now. Companies are between pushed to divest or close Russia business or risk losing business in the West. Difficult to see what good this achieves, but another step back to the Soviet Union.
I agree, I don't see the point of punishing ordinary Russians who are also victims of Putin's tyranny. By pulling social media services, Netflix, fast food, Visa/Mastercard, Coca-Cola etc.. it not only throws the country back into the Soviet era but could harden public opinion and sense of victim-hood. Counter-intuitively we could see more declarations of national pride and resistance than calls for revolution and toppling of the regime.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Castro for this useful post:
  #4125  
Old 09.03.2022, 12:27
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Geneva
Posts: 1,769
Groaned at 217 Times in 145 Posts
Thanked 2,149 Times in 1,036 Posts
Biro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

It's not called "Virtual signalling" although it may look a bit like it, it is called "Pissing the population off" to such an extent they remove Putain from power.


Whilst the simple effect of not being able to eat a Big Mac won't make too much difference, add them all together from the low level of Macdo up to high level of Hermes and the effect quickly becomes noticable.
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users would like to thank Biro for this useful post:
  #4126  
Old 09.03.2022, 12:57
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 5,303
Groaned at 103 Times in 94 Posts
Thanked 7,752 Times in 3,641 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
I agree, I don't see the point of punishing ordinary Russians who are also victims of Putin's tyranny. By pulling social media services, Netflix, fast food, Visa/Mastercard, Coca-Cola etc.. it not only throws the country back into the Soviet era but could harden public opinion and sense of victim-hood. Counter-intuitively we could see more declarations of national pride and resistance than calls for revolution and toppling of the regime.
Of course economic sanctions don't make people topple the dictator, see Venezuela. But, the dictator becomes harmless in the long term to people outside, see Venezuela.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #4127  
Old 09.03.2022, 13:09
robBob's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: https://youtu.be/JAJbqL2IMm8
Posts: 3,609
Groaned at 82 Times in 61 Posts
Thanked 3,696 Times in 1,939 Posts
robBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Can someone explain the point of this to me? It's not like it will be sticking it to Putin so that he doesn't get to enjoy a Big Mac. Is this just virtue signalling from MCD, or is there some plausible way that this helps?
Can only think that the supermarket shelves are already empty. Or the price for a Big Mac hasn't changed yet. Perhaps going out of country sale!
Reply With Quote
  #4128  
Old 09.03.2022, 13:16
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kt.ZH
Posts: 11,935
Groaned at 471 Times in 387 Posts
Thanked 18,694 Times in 9,456 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

I suppose Pizza Hut are the next to leave, they came in this order...
Reply With Quote
  #4129  
Old 09.03.2022, 13:25
gaburko's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BL
Posts: 1,181
Groaned at 210 Times in 152 Posts
Thanked 4,239 Times in 1,565 Posts
gaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
I was just trying to think through possible alleys, and had in mind the concept of stopping the actual bleeding now, move the economic bleeding to Russia long term and buy time and bet on Russia getting weaker and essentially a form of regime change.
I agree, both are losers now. However, the ferocious fighting put up by the Ukrainians seems to have won them massive points on the negotiation table.
Zakharova just said that Moscow's aims do not include overthrowing the Kyiv government and it hopes to achieve more significant progress in the next round of talks with Ukraine


It's clear to everyone that wars finish on the negotiation table, not on the battlefield, BUT the battlefield performance sets the cards on the table
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank gaburko for this useful post:
  #4130  
Old 09.03.2022, 13:36
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Geneva
Posts: 1,769
Groaned at 217 Times in 145 Posts
Thanked 2,149 Times in 1,036 Posts
Biro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
It's clear to everyone that wars finish on the negotiation table, not on the battlefield, BUT the battlefield performance sets the cards on the table

WWII didn't end up by negotiating in any sense, Russians devastaed Berlin, the US devestated Japan, no negotiation at all !!
Reply With Quote
  #4131  
Old 09.03.2022, 13:43
MidfieldGeneral's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,557
Groaned at 103 Times in 96 Posts
Thanked 3,246 Times in 1,318 Posts
MidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

read this in a tweet:

Regardless of whose side you're on, removing Heineken, Pizza Hut, Coca Cola, Pepsi, McDonald's and Yum Yum donuts seems appropriate from a public health perspective.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank MidfieldGeneral for this useful post:
  #4132  
Old 09.03.2022, 13:59
suissa's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 251
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 206 Times in 99 Posts
suissa has a reputation beyond reputesuissa has a reputation beyond reputesuissa has a reputation beyond reputesuissa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post

Of course a negotiated solution would mean that Putin stays in power and - apart form sanctions - gets away with this. Which is an awful thought.

But let us assume Russia would accept armed neutrality, concession of Crimea and a international peacekeeping force in Eastern Ukraine in order for it to retreat....
Not sure if this has been discussed, and I know this is probably a very impopular thought and a bit naive . Berlusconi, I recall, spoke about this years ago. But: has Europe at any time considered Russia for EU membership? Rather: redefine Europe as Eurasia. Could this be the moment to resource to very radical ideas to solve this unsolvable problem?

I read that, in terms of Europe-Russia relations, polls have been showing that EU was perceived quite well by Russian population, improving over time except that when polls reached ample acceptance in Russia a crisis came and a fall - then Crimea was invaded, or now Ucrania, and the Russian people mostly went back to unacceptance. Who benefits from this? The big losers are Europe and Russia. I have been working, dining, partying with Russians. I do not see such cultural distance as to have two separate blocks, or not more distance than between some EU members. We are actually in the same continent if we think about it. We have common history with division of territory different from what today is. Economics play a role, but Russian economy is not that big, although their territory, natural resources and military power certainly is. This division of the old USSR members acting as a security band dividing Russia from Europe seems artificial to me. The global powers would be more balanced if instead of going to war and destruction Europe and Russia would seek union.

Perhaps, only perhaps, opening our minds to a future Eurasia could be a possibility? Would any of our leaders even consider something like this? Not Putin, not now after the invasion, I guess.
__________________
Sometimes you gotta say WTF?! It gives you freedom.

Last edited by NotAllThere; 09.03.2022 at 15:22. Reason: Fixed quote tags
Reply With Quote
  #4133  
Old 09.03.2022, 14:01
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 12,278
Groaned at 689 Times in 579 Posts
Thanked 23,627 Times in 12,385 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
I suppose Pizza Hut are the next to leave, they came in this order...
KFC and Pizza Hut, both owned by Yum Brands, announced withdrawl from Russia.

Over 300 Companies Have Withdrawn from Russia, here is the latest list.

The President that the Russians voted in has invaded Ukraine so making life less pleasant for those Russian voters is OK. Life is now a lot less pleasant for people living in Ukraine - maybe people here could offer more sympathy for the Ukrainians and less for the Russians?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #4134  
Old 09.03.2022, 14:06
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 3,988
Groaned at 381 Times in 271 Posts
Thanked 8,466 Times in 3,608 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
But: has Europe at any time considered Russia for EU membership? Rather: redefine Europe as Eurasia. Could this be the moment to resource to very radical ideas to solve this unsolvable problem?
I am sure Putin would be open to extending Russia to the Atlantic. The EU to the Pacific? Not so sure.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank komsomolez for this useful post:
  #4135  
Old 09.03.2022, 14:08
gaburko's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BL
Posts: 1,181
Groaned at 210 Times in 152 Posts
Thanked 4,239 Times in 1,565 Posts
gaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
WWII didn't end up by negotiating in any sense, Russians devastaed Berlin, the US devestated Japan, no negotiation at all !!
During WWII the Allies had declared that they seek nothing short of unconditional surrender and the Nazis had literally nothing to lose if they kept fighting until the end as the end would have been the same whether they are defeated or surrender.

This is not the case with Russia and Ukraine, not sure why you believe it was a relevant example.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank gaburko for this useful post:
  #4136  
Old 09.03.2022, 14:10
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 12,278
Groaned at 689 Times in 579 Posts
Thanked 23,627 Times in 12,385 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Of course economic sanctions don't make people topple the dictator, see Venezuela. But, the dictator becomes harmless in the long term to people outside, see Venezuela.
South Africa?

Quote:
Viktor Yushchenko, the third president of Ukraine who was elected in 2004, lobbied during his term to gain admission to NATO and the EU.
Soon after Yushchenko entered office, Russia demanded Kyiv pay the same rate that it charged Western European states.
This quadrupled Ukraine's energy bill overnight.
Russia subsequently cut off the supply of natural gas in 2006, causing significant harm to the Ukrainian and Russian economies.

As the Ukrainian economy began to struggle, Yushchenko's approval ratings dropped significantly; reaching the single digits by the 2010 election; Viktor Yanukovych, who was more supportive of Moscow won the election in 2010 to become the fourth president of Ukraine.
After his election, gas prices were reduced substantially.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #4137  
Old 09.03.2022, 15:19
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,130
Groaned at 80 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 4,414 Times in 2,377 Posts
rainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
They didn't work after 18, but they worked after 45 so it seems we have learned how to implement them in a way to deter. Or you believe it is someone else that should pay for the senseless destruction of putler?
AFAIK, Germany did pay almost nothing after WW2.

Even more so, all pre-war debt was nixed after a while (with agreement from the Allies).

The only exception is Israel. There are AFAIK still payments.

Unfortunately, starting a war and basically bombing your opponent to rubbles is not the same as damaging a parked car while you're stumbling home hammered.

With hindsight, a lot of people in Europe agreed after WW2 that the reparation after WW1 were not helpful in the end.

Reparations will just make people resentful.
Reply With Quote
  #4138  
Old 09.03.2022, 15:23
Castro's Avatar
à la mod
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ZG
Posts: 5,840
Groaned at 129 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 17,648 Times in 5,603 Posts
Castro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
The President that the Russians voted in has invaded Ukraine so making life less pleasant for those Russian voters is OK. Life is now a lot less pleasant for people living in Ukraine - maybe people here could offer more sympathy for the Ukrainians and less for the Russians?
Its a lot more nuanced than that, is Russia a true democracy? were there free and fair elections? Because if there were, Navalny wouldn't have been poisoned and thrown in Jail.

Of course we all have sympathy for Ukraine, but making life increasingly miserable for Russians isn't going to make much difference to Putin and his enablers who are living on another planet.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Castro for this useful post:
  #4139  
Old 09.03.2022, 15:31
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 12,278
Groaned at 689 Times in 579 Posts
Thanked 23,627 Times in 12,385 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Poland said today that it wants to work with NATO countries to send fighter jets to Ukraine one day after the U.S. rejected Poland’s proposal.

"Such a serious decision as supplying planes must be unanimous and unequivocally made by the whole North Atlantic alliance," Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki said at a press conference.

He also said the Norway - Poland gas pipeline will be finished in 7/8 months.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #4140  
Old 09.03.2022, 15:40
gaburko's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BL
Posts: 1,181
Groaned at 210 Times in 152 Posts
Thanked 4,239 Times in 1,565 Posts
gaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Of course we all have sympathy for Ukraine, but making life increasingly miserable for Russians isn't going to make much difference to Putin and his enablers who are living on another planet.
Yes, I see your point, but the exodus of western companies and brands is rather a by-product of the sanctions and capital controls rather than a specific objective. These companies are not only trying to avoid boycott in the west, but also they're basically unable to repatriate profits back home.

So it's rather unfortunate, but expected collateral-damage of the sanctions, for which there's wide consensus that they are needed and working.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank gaburko for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
crimea, russia, ukraine




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jewish Refugees in Switzerland during World War II zanskar International affairs/politics 48 16.06.2010 15:58
Book about Switzerland in the second world war [recommendation?] telandy Other/general 14 18.06.2007 20:15


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 19:16.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0