 | | | 
09.03.2022, 18:36
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Basel
Posts: 15,479
Groaned at 304 Times in 204 Posts
Thanked 19,718 Times in 8,307 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | The following 9 users would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post: | | 
09.03.2022, 18:39
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SG
Posts: 10,588
Groaned at 650 Times in 471 Posts
Thanked 14,359 Times in 7,501 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Failure to stick to the Minsk agreements was a contributing factor, but not joining NATO is new (even if only symbolic in practice). | | | | | From Wiki:
"On February 12, 2008, then Russian President Vladimir Putin said Russia may target its missiles at Ukraine if its neighbour joins NATO and accepts the deployment of a US missile defence shield."
| This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post: | | 
09.03.2022, 19:17
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: BL
Posts: 1,181
Groaned at 210 Times in 152 Posts
Thanked 4,239 Times in 1,565 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
Murdering innocent civilians was the new-normal for Putin, but he has reached a new despicable low by targeting a maternity hospital
Images like this should be shown to everybody in Russia once this is over so that the normal Russians understand what kind of monster has been their "leader" for 23 years.
| The following 10 users would like to thank gaburko for this useful post: | | 
09.03.2022, 20:35
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 2,173
Groaned at 1,011 Times in 568 Posts
Thanked 5,385 Times in 2,403 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | It's not called "Virtual signalling" although it may look a bit like it, it is called "Pissing the population off" to such an extent they remove Putain from power.
Whilst the simple effect of not being able to eat a Big Mac won't make too much difference, add them all together from the low level of Macdo up to high level of Hermes and the effect quickly becomes noticable. | | | | | Although I understand the sentiment, I think this is just another western pipe dream. President Putin has had a long time to assert his grip on power, I think it's unlikely this would be removed so easily.
| This user would like to thank TonyClifton for this useful post: | | 
09.03.2022, 20:47
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Thalwil
Posts: 1,424
Groaned at 66 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 1,547 Times in 783 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Images like this should be shown to everybody in Russia once this is over so that the normal Russians understand what kind of monster has been their "leader" for 23 years. | | | | | About 70% of Russians are in the state of zombies at the moment. They won't be impressed with these photos at all.
Last edited by TinyK; 09.03.2022 at 22:24.
| The following 2 users would like to thank TinyK for this useful post: | | 
09.03.2022, 21:08
| Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Zürich
Posts: 800
Groaned at 109 Times in 69 Posts
Thanked 1,108 Times in 550 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | It was not before 2019, so of course constitutions can be changed.
I know that everyone says there is no road to victory for Putin. I agree. The problem is there is also difficult to see a road to victory for Ukraine - unless you expect that they can either drive Russia out of UA or for Russia to collapse and give up. Both very unlikely in the short term. So horrendous suffering to come and a country left in ruins.
Of course a negotiated solution would mean that Putin stays in power and - apart form sanctions - gets away with this. Which is an awful thought.
But let us assume Russia would accept armed neutrality, concession of Crimea and a international peacekeeping force in Eastern Ukraine in order for it to retreat. Even if sanctions would be pulled back somewhat (would need to be part of the deal), I would think that most of the damage is done and some "tectonic" changes are irreversible. That would leave Russia arguably weakened for decades. UA in the mean time could avoid the worst, start rebuilding with international support and play a long game of getting stronger while the enemy gets weaker.
Probably delusional, just trying "to game things out" as the alleged experts do. Would like to hear your thoughts thought. In the mean time I can get some coffee and get real. | | | | | there is only one problem with Putin: he will never stop
| The following 2 users would like to thank vladest for this useful post: | | 
09.03.2022, 21:20
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Thalwil
Posts: 1,424
Groaned at 66 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 1,547 Times in 783 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | there is only one problem with Putin: he will never stop | | | | | And Ukraine won't make such an offer.
| The following 2 users would like to thank TinyK for this useful post: | | 
09.03.2022, 21:22
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: SZ
Posts: 3,988
Groaned at 381 Times in 271 Posts
Thanked 8,466 Times in 3,608 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | there is only one problem with Putin: he will never stop | | | | | Sure. As I said, no good options.
Good podcast today by The Bulwark with Gen Hertling on the military situation and outlook in Ukraine. 40 mins instead of the reletively short interviews he has with CNN. https://open.spotify.com/episode/5nQ...urce=copy-link | This user would like to thank komsomolez for this useful post: | | 
09.03.2022, 21:33
| Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Zürich
Posts: 800
Groaned at 109 Times in 69 Posts
Thanked 1,108 Times in 550 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Let Putin be called Putin and have his name be directly associated with his actions. | | | | | lets call him simple: Huilo. who actually he is
| 
09.03.2022, 22:02
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: |  | | | Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and his Ukrainian counterpart Dmytro Kuleba are set to meet Thursday in Turkey, Moscow and Ankara said.
It would be the first Cabinet-level meeting between the two countries since Russia invaded Ukraine.
Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu said the meeting would take place in Antalya, which was later confirmed by the Russian foreign affairs ministry. We hope it will lead to peace and stability, Cavusoğlu tweeted. | | | | | https://www.politico.eu/article/russ...eet-in-turkey/ | 
09.03.2022, 22:28
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Kt.ZH
Posts: 11,935
Groaned at 471 Times in 387 Posts
Thanked 18,694 Times in 9,456 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Images like this should be shown to everybody in Russia once this is over so that the normal Russians understand what kind of monster has been their "leader" for 23 years. | | | | | This is genocide and there is no justification for what's happening there.
Last edited by greenmount; 09.03.2022 at 22:39.
| 
09.03.2022, 22:46
| Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Geneva
Posts: 1,769
Groaned at 217 Times in 145 Posts
Thanked 2,149 Times in 1,036 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | This is genocide and there is no justification for what's happening there. | | | | |
It is not a "genocide" a genocide is when you set out to kill a certain part of the population. Hitler and the Jews or Ruwanda where the Hutu's killed the Tutsi minority was a genocide.
I think the UN deem genocide when more than 10% of a minority is killed and they have to act under their charter, which is why you'll never hear the word "genocide" in any UN official document.
This is just simply murder, Putain doesn't care who gets killed, be they Russian or Ukrainian, male, female or adult, child.
| The following 2 users would like to thank Biro for this useful post: | | 
09.03.2022, 22:49
| Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Geneva
Posts: 1,769
Groaned at 217 Times in 145 Posts
Thanked 2,149 Times in 1,036 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Although I understand the sentiment, I think this is just another western pipe dream. President Putin has had a long time to assert his grip on power, I think it's unlikely this would be removed so easily. | | | | |
Most dictators get taken out by an uprising and a pissed off population doesn't take too much to set it off, especially if the campaign continues as it is now.
Russia knows the good times since 1990 and not many want to go back. North Korea is different it is ruled with an iron fist and everything is controlled, Russia is very different.
| 
09.03.2022, 22:57
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: SZ
Posts: 3,988
Groaned at 381 Times in 271 Posts
Thanked 8,466 Times in 3,608 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | It is not a "genocide" a genocide is when you set out to kill a certain part of the population. Hitler and the Jews or Ruwanda where the Hutu's killed the Tutsi minority was a genocide.
I think the UN deem genocide when more than 10% of a minority is killed and they have to act under their charter, which is why you'll never hear the word "genocide" in any UN official document.
This is just simply murder, Putain doesn't care who gets killed, be they Russian or Ukrainian, male, female or adult, child. | | | | | Exacty. As the hospital in Mariupol was likely not targeted but just hit because someone dropped a bomb not caring what it hits. It is indiscriminate bombing and shelling of civilian areas with dumb munition.
War crimes, yes. Genocide, no.
| 
09.03.2022, 23:04
| Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Zürich
Posts: 800
Groaned at 109 Times in 69 Posts
Thanked 1,108 Times in 550 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Not exactly.
Neutral (no block membership) and non-nuclear status was agreed and signed by all USSR members at separation from RF in 1999.
Ukraine violated both - NATO membership as a strategic objective added to constitution, and non-nuclear commitment abandoned early this year | | | | | no and no
| This user would like to thank vladest for this useful post: | | 
09.03.2022, 23:06
| Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Zürich
Posts: 800
Groaned at 109 Times in 69 Posts
Thanked 1,108 Times in 550 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | And Ukraine won't make such an offer. | | | | | there is a tiny problem: UA prez. he will give up all the victims and suffers to what he was elected for: gift UA to putin
| 
09.03.2022, 23:07
| Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Zürich
Posts: 800
Groaned at 109 Times in 69 Posts
Thanked 1,108 Times in 550 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Where did you read this? All I could see us that Zelensky floated the neutrality idea but refuses any territorial concessions. | | | | | neutrality would means all of this repeated again and again
| 
09.03.2022, 23:12
| Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Zürich
Posts: 800
Groaned at 109 Times in 69 Posts
Thanked 1,108 Times in 550 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Exacty. As the hospital in Mariupol was likely not targeted but just hit because someone dropped a bomb not caring what it hits. It is indiscriminate bombing and shelling of civilian areas with dumb munition.
War crimes, yes. Genocide, no. | | | | | I think its targeted on purpose. spreading fear is what putin doing very well.
Also there is evidence that Zaharova said about shelling maternity hospitals just before that, so it might be linked events
| This user would like to thank vladest for this useful post: | | 
10.03.2022, 06:23
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: BL
Posts: 1,181
Groaned at 210 Times in 152 Posts
Thanked 4,239 Times in 1,565 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | I think its targeted on purpose. spreading fear is what putin doing very well. | | | | | According to some reports the bomb used was FAB-500. If this is true, it's hard to believe they were targeting the hospital specifically as this bomb is unguided.
HOWEVER, using air-dropped unguided bombs in a densely populated city is obviously meant to spread fear and panic, as you suggest as these bombs can land anywhere in the city.
| 
10.03.2022, 06:39
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Thalwil
Posts: 1,424
Groaned at 66 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 1,547 Times in 783 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | HOWEVER, using air-dropped unguided bombs in a densely populated city is obviously meant to spread fear and panic, as you suggest as these bombs can land anywhere in the city. | | | | | There were people who said all these years that Russian government was a terroristic organization and were laughed at. Now the whole world understands that this is in fact true. Russia is a terroristic organisation.
| This user would like to thank TinyK for this useful post: | |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 3 (0 members and 3 guests) | | Thread Tools | | Display Modes | Linear Mode |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts HTML code is Off | | | All times are GMT +2. The time now is 19:57. | |