Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #4421  
Old 14.03.2022, 13:37
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 23,327
Groaned at 462 Times in 358 Posts
Thanked 18,640 Times in 10,313 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Help us through the paywall pls.
What paywall?
Reply With Quote
  #4422  
Old 14.03.2022, 13:53
Aleydis's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,041
Groaned at 37 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 949 Times in 493 Posts
Aleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

The plot thickens....

(Russian airlines' fleet)

https://tass.com/politics/1421727
Reply With Quote
  #4423  
Old 14.03.2022, 14:05
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 455
Groaned at 63 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 1,302 Times in 725 Posts
Reb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Considering he consistently writes for Russian State Media, I would take anything he says with a pinch of salt.
From Scott Ritter’s Other War (New York Times, Feb 2012):

Quote:
... Ritter’s Georgian-born wife, Marina, whom he met as a weapons inspector in Russia in 1989, no longer allows reporters into their home ... He claims that ... the F.B.I. hounded Marina for years because it suspected she was former K.G.B. ...
Reply With Quote
  #4424  
Old 14.03.2022, 15:29
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 7,805
Groaned at 491 Times in 363 Posts
Thanked 10,917 Times in 5,063 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
NY Times Telegram channel

The New York Times launches a Telegram channel to deliver news about the war.

To make our journalism more accessible to readers around the world, The New York Times has launched a new, dedicated channel on Telegram, a messaging platform with more than half a billion active users.

This Telegram channel delivers reporting on the war from our continuous live blog, where Times journalists are providing witness accounts, interviews and breaking news from the conflict.

Any Telegram user can subscribe to the @nytimes channel at https://t.me/nytimes.

Spread the word. Telegram app required.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank bowlie for this useful post:
  #4425  
Old 14.03.2022, 15:31
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kt.ZH
Posts: 11,934
Groaned at 471 Times in 387 Posts
Thanked 18,682 Times in 9,452 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Mind your step into reality...

Scott Ritter, Former US Marine Corps Intelligence Officer... Is he in KGB now?
That is definitely not unheard of......and I bet they will keep coming out of the closet.....

Poor things.
Reply With Quote
  #4426  
Old 14.03.2022, 15:43
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Zürich
Posts: 800
Groaned at 109 Times in 69 Posts
Thanked 1,108 Times in 550 Posts
vladest has a reputation beyond reputevladest has a reputation beyond reputevladest has a reputation beyond reputevladest has a reputation beyond reputevladest has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
meanwhile, in the real world, Russian troops are now reportedly ~15km outside of Kiev. also noticeably less propoganda about sensationalist Ukranian victories being made. reality probably beginning to sink in.
link?
Reply With Quote
  #4427  
Old 14.03.2022, 15:44
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Zürich
Posts: 800
Groaned at 109 Times in 69 Posts
Thanked 1,108 Times in 550 Posts
vladest has a reputation beyond reputevladest has a reputation beyond reputevladest has a reputation beyond reputevladest has a reputation beyond reputevladest has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
You mean you're happy that more civilian deaths and more civilian infrastructure destruction will follow?
he is
Reply With Quote
  #4428  
Old 14.03.2022, 16:02
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 3,987
Groaned at 382 Times in 272 Posts
Thanked 8,443 Times in 3,603 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
What paywall?
Seems like i have exhausted my number of free articles.
Reply With Quote
  #4429  
Old 14.03.2022, 16:04
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 3,987
Groaned at 382 Times in 272 Posts
Thanked 8,443 Times in 3,603 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
The plot thickens....

(Russian airlines' fleet)

https://tass.com/politics/1421727
Stopped reading at "domestic airworthiness".
Reply With Quote
  #4430  
Old 14.03.2022, 16:07
Hausamsee's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Lucerne
Posts: 781
Groaned at 114 Times in 64 Posts
Thanked 1,064 Times in 466 Posts
Hausamsee has a reputation beyond reputeHausamsee has a reputation beyond reputeHausamsee has a reputation beyond reputeHausamsee has a reputation beyond reputeHausamsee has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
meanwhile, in the real world, Russian troops are now reportedly ~15km outside of Kiev. also noticeably less propoganda about sensationalist Ukranian victories being made. reality probably beginning to sink in.
Scary, travelling at about 4km per 10 days
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Hausamsee for this useful post:
  #4431  
Old 14.03.2022, 16:10
gaburko's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BL
Posts: 1,181
Groaned at 210 Times in 152 Posts
Thanked 4,226 Times in 1,561 Posts
gaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Seems like i have exhausted my number of free articles.
It's OK-ish and with the title you basically get the key message. Article below



Why the West May Have to Offer Putin a Way Out
The question for world leaders is how to ensure the Russian president is defeated while nevertheless providing him with a route out of the crisis.

By Tom McTague


Across the west there is a sense that Vladimir Putin not only must be stopped from colonizing Ukraine but should be punished for his barbarism as well. It is a question of natural justice. But Western leaders also face a second imperative. The frightening reality is that we are closer to nuclear war than at any time since the 1962 Cuban missile crisis. And in some ways, the risk of the current crisis spiraling out of control is even greater than that faced by John F. Kennedy and Nikita Khrushchev. Unlike in 1962, a hot war is already raging over territory that one side considers important to its national interest, and the other knows is necessary to its national survival. The war, in other words, has become a zero-sum conflict, even though on no reasonable basis can Putin’s belief in Ukraine as a threat to Russia’s security be seen as valid.

What makes this situation even more dangerous is that Ukraine is (legitimately and sensibly) being armed and supplied by the very military alliance Russia most fears, NATO. Meanwhile, Russia is being squeezed by an ever-tightening economic blockade designed to force its defeat. On top of all this are credible claims that if this campaign ends in humiliating defeat for Russia, it will prove terminal for not only the country’s national prestige and power, but Putin’s regime itself.

When a gambler has already lost so much that he will go bankrupt unless he can turn it around, the logical thing for him to do is to continue upping the stakes. This is the desperate opponent the West may now face. Worse: This is the opponent whose bloodstained debts the West may have to to write off.

Britain’s defense secretary has said that Putin “is a spent force in the world.” His French counterpart has declared, “Ukraine will win.” A consensus is building in Western capitals that Russia’s calamitous handling of the conflict means it may already have lost—indeed, that its political goals may never have been realizable in the first place, given the size of Ukraine and the opposition of its people to Russian control.

These statements, however, exhibit a dangerous combination of escalation, wish fulfillment, and, most worrying of all, truth.

In Western capitals, there has been an escalation both in the official response to Russia’s invasion—the scale of the sanctions and military support, for example—and in the rhetorical denouncement of the regime. This is understandable and long overdue. Putin appears to preside over something like a Mafia state: corrupt, kleptocratic, and violent, based on networks of loyalty and territorial claims that have nothing to do with popular will and that must be opposed.

But Western leaders should also recognize the dangers of talking themselves into an even worse situation than already exists, and must be clear about their goals. Do they seek a way to end the conflict, or Russia’s defeat? Perhaps these are now one and the same, but the difference may well become important.

Boris Johnson, for example, has said that Putin’s act of aggression “must fail and be seen to fail.” This is both true and problematic. It is important for Western security that the aspiring Putins of this world understand that if they try something akin to invading Ukraine, they will be crushed and humiliated, as is happening to Russia. The conundrum, however, is that it would also be easier for Putin to retreat if he has a way of claiming he has not failed. Analysts and diplomats that I spoke with said it is possible to defeat Putin while finding a message that Putin can tout as a victory at home. But the fact that the West might need to give him something to sell weakens its ability to sell its own victory.

Another problem is that wars change things. The only realistic diplomatic solution is some kind of reassertion of the status quo that existed before the war, coupled with diplomatic assurances for both sides. But why should Ukraine accept the status quo given what it has been through, and how could Putin do likewise given the price he has already paid? Ukraine has now applied for European Union membership and is even more legitimate in its desire to join NATO. Its population appears to have united in adversity, to have found its voice as a European nation-state. The status quo that Putin found so intolerable before may not be possible to resuscitate—because he killed it.

The second element of the Western response that risks making peace even harder to achieve is wish fulfillment. Western officials are strengthening their rhetoric and support for Ukraine out of moral and geopolitical solidarity, but also because of Ukraine’s early success in resisting the Russian attack. The longer Ukraine holds out, the more the West might believe that something greater than the status quo is possible: that Putin and his regime might not survive the crisis they have brought about. If the West begins to see a future that is better than the status quo, or realizes that public opinion at home will not allow a return to “normal” relations with Russia, it will limit close options for a diplomatic solution.

There is a danger, however, in translating Russian difficulties in the early stages of the war into wider assumptions about the state’s sclerosis—that Moscow’s military is not up to the job, that its struggles in Ukraine reveal a system riddled with corruption, that Putin is a paper tiger, that the regime in Moscow will soon fall. Chinese authoritarianism survived Tiananmen Square, Iranian theocracy survived years of Western sanctions, and, most recently, Bashar al-Assad survived the Syrian civil war.

But what is potentially even more frightening than misplaced wishful thinking is the third element: truth. It is possible that Putin’s regime really is as weak as people suggest. Some long-time Russia analysts not prone to hyperbole believe it might collapse as a result of this crisis. “For the first time in 20 years looking at this regime, I’m really questioning [it],” Michael Kofman, the director of Russia studies at the CNA think tank, told the War on the Rocks podcast. This must be a good thing, right? Not necessarily. Kofman was also worried about what might come next if Putin’s regime does fall. “I’m not saying it’s going to be replaced by something better,” he said. “If you don’t like the authoritarian system now, you may not like the authoritarian system that comes later.”

More than that, though, the very fact of Russia’s weakness creates its own set of dangers. First, the West might become overconfident about how far it can push the Russian state. Second, the prospect of defeat in Ukraine raises the chance that Putin will escalate the conflict. The Russian president might calculate that he simply cannot lose, increasing the odds that he will deploy nuclear or biological weapons to change the facts on the ground and expose the West’s apparent reticence to retaliate. The nature of his regime means that not only is his power at stake, but potentially his wealth and even his life. “I think he’s going to follow through, and this is what worries me,” Kofman said, warning that people should not assume Putin will blanch at leveling Kyiv—he has already shown he is willing to do so, first in Grozny, Chechnya, and then in Aleppo, when Russian airpower supported Assad.

The danger, then, is that escalating Western support for Ukraine—fueled by Putin’s barbarism, Ukrainian success, and Western optimism—will combine with the regime’s growing weakness to create the conditions for miscalculation born of desperation. And the longer the crisis lasts, the greater this danger.

The question for western leaders is how to ensure Putin is defeated while nevertheless providing him with a route out of the crisis and avoiding any missteps that could lead to a wider conflagration. The path along the cliff edge is precarious.

According to diplomats and experts I spoke with, the way forward involves a number of elements. First, the West must ensure that however much support it gives to Kyiv, the conflict remains one between Ukraine and Russia. That way, peace negotiations remain between the two countries, and not Russia and the West more widely. Washington, Paris, London, and Berlin cannot allow talks to become what Putin wants them to be: a negotiation about spheres of influence in which Ukraine and other states can be bargained away. This, in effect, would be a victory for Putin and his tactics of nuclear brinkmanship, leading to a more dangerous world in which other dictators take the lesson that bullying and intimidation work.

Second, the West must not close off potential compromises that the Ukrainians themselves would be willing to negotiate. If Putin is to accept a negotiated defeat, he will require a fig leaf to hide the reality that he has failed to subdue Ukraine. There has been speculation, for example, that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky might be prepared to formally renounce his pursuit of NATO membership, one of a number of pledges that could be made to serve as a pretext for Russian de-escalation. Zelensky could also promise not to send troops into the Donbas, for example, or seek to retake Crimea—or even to seek nuclear weapons, or allow them to be stationed on Ukrainian territory. In other words, he could use Russia’s absurd propaganda to his advantage by formally pledging not to do things that he or any of his successors would have considered doing anyway.

The difficulty comes with compromises that are not fair. Why should Ukraine not seek EU or NATO membership? Or why should it accept the annexation of Crimea, a part of its sovereign territory? Here diplomatic skills must come to the fore.

Ultimately, diplomacy will have to get each side to agree to a deal that allows each to save its dignity—even though one side does not deserve to have its dignity saved.

The Cuban missile crisis ended with Russian missiles turning back while the Americans agreed not to invade Cuba, and to remove their missiles from Turkey. Historians disagree over whether this maintained the status quo in terms of the overall balance of power between the two sides, or left Russia slightly better off than when the crisis began. Either way, it ended without catastrophic miscalculation and with a compromise balanced enough that both sides were able to save face.

The situation today is not the same as it was then. Unlike Khrushchev, Putin has not simply walked up to a line, but crossed it, unleashing a terror for which he should be held accountable. The horrible reality, though, is that the best option for the West might involve finding a way for him to not be held as accountable as he should be—but then to never forget what he has done.

Tom McTague is a London-based staff writer at The Atlantic, and co-author of Betting the House: The Inside Story of the 2017 Election.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank gaburko for this useful post:
  #4432  
Old 14.03.2022, 16:14
arz arz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Zurich Witikon
Posts: 195
Groaned at 73 Times in 47 Posts
Thanked 190 Times in 129 Posts
arz is considered unworthyarz is considered unworthyarz is considered unworthy
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Scary, travelling at about 4km per 10 days

switched the tank engines to economy mode.
Why would they have to rush?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank arz for this useful post:
  #4433  
Old 14.03.2022, 16:21
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kt.ZH
Posts: 11,934
Groaned at 471 Times in 387 Posts
Thanked 18,682 Times in 9,452 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
he is
I guess (s)he doesn't believe there is a war in Ukraine....

This is a peace intervention and it will stop as soon as Ukraine surrenders, accepts a puppet pro-Moscow regime, reforms their society as to correspond to "the new reality*" AND PAYS RUSSIA WAR REPARATIONS.

*has anyone listened to that dumb-traitor mayor with whom the legal mayor of Melitopol was replaced by the occupants?
Did anyone have a "oh my god, back to '45" cold feeling?
Here...
https://news.sky.com/video/ukraine-w...eople-12565081

Start "living in a new way". Wow.

Last edited by greenmount; 14.03.2022 at 16:43.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #4434  
Old 14.03.2022, 17:14
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: transcended.
Posts: 180
Groaned at 231 Times in 121 Posts
Thanked 857 Times in 366 Posts
vushka is considered unworthyvushka is considered unworthyvushka is considered unworthy
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Of course it won't and I wasn't implying it. I was merely responding to the weird gloat of vushka who seems to be happy that the soviet army is making further incursions into the cities.

A very weird "setup" in Moscow where the "interviewer" seem to be part of OMON and people who respond to him get arrested immediately. The first woman had a sign with the simple piece of paper with "two words" written on it and got carried away.
not gloating. i have been really opposed to the cartoony and childlike propaganda that has been spread, convincing people that Ukrainians are "winning" though. especially since this has likely contributed to more Ukranians getting killed.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank vushka for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at vushka for this post:
  #4435  
Old 14.03.2022, 17:18
gaburko's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BL
Posts: 1,181
Groaned at 210 Times in 152 Posts
Thanked 4,226 Times in 1,561 Posts
gaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
especially since this has likely contributed to more Ukranians getting killed.
You realize that the sole and only reason for Ukrainians getting killed is Putin's invasion and war right? Don't look for any excuse elsewhere, the sole responsibility for every single death, injury, destroyed hospitals and buildings is solely on Putin, nothing else.
Reply With Quote
The following 11 users would like to thank gaburko for this useful post:
  #4436  
Old 14.03.2022, 17:33
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 455
Groaned at 63 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 1,302 Times in 725 Posts
Reb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
not gloating. i have been really opposed to the cartoony and childlike propaganda that has been spread, convincing people that Ukrainians are "winning" though. especially since this has likely contributed to more Ukranians getting killed.
This seems to chime with a "Mother Russia" point of view, considering Ukraine childish and needing to be brought into line.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Reb77Br for this useful post:
  #4437  
Old 14.03.2022, 17:45
arz arz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Zurich Witikon
Posts: 195
Groaned at 73 Times in 47 Posts
Thanked 190 Times in 129 Posts
arz is considered unworthyarz is considered unworthyarz is considered unworthy
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
This seems to chime with a "Mother Russia" point of view, considering Ukraine childish and needing to be brought into line.

yes, a child with a cocked grenade in his hands
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users groan at arz for this post:
  #4438  
Old 14.03.2022, 17:51
Aleydis's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,041
Groaned at 37 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 949 Times in 493 Posts
Aleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Stopped reading at "domestic airworthiness".
Hehe... given that immediate repossession is impossible (well, there is one Aeroflot plane parked in Geneva), the asset value of all aircraft (still?) registered in Bermuda, is rapidly approaching zero... I can imagine a decade of litigation 🙂
Reply With Quote
  #4439  
Old 14.03.2022, 17:55
NotAllThere's Avatar
Modulo 2
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 16,001
Groaned at 340 Times in 293 Posts
Thanked 25,209 Times in 10,257 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
You realize that the sole and only reason for Ukrainians getting killed is Putin's invasion and war right? Don't look for any excuse elsewhere, the sole responsibility for every single death, injury, destroyed hospitals and buildings is solely on Putin, nothing else.
No, no. It's all Zelensky's fault for fighting back, and the West for supporting him. © Russia Today, as dictated by Putin.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #4440  
Old 14.03.2022, 17:57
Aleydis's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,041
Groaned at 37 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 949 Times in 493 Posts
Aleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
I guess (s)he doesn't believe there is a war in Ukraine....

This is a peace intervention and it will stop as soon as Ukraine surrenders, accepts a puppet pro-Moscow regime, reforms their society as to correspond to "the new reality*" AND PAYS RUSSIA WAR REPARATIONS.

*has anyone listened to that dumb-traitor mayor with whom the legal mayor of Melitopol was replaced by the occupants?
Did anyone have a "oh my god, back to '45" cold feeling?
Here...
https://news.sky.com/video/ukraine-w...eople-12565081

Start "living in a new way". Wow.
1917 not 1945... https://www.britannica.com/topic/Mil...nary-Committee 😏😔
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
crimea, russia, ukraine




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jewish Refugees in Switzerland during World War II zanskar International affairs/politics 48 16.06.2010 16:58
Book about Switzerland in the second world war [recommendation?] telandy Other/general 14 18.06.2007 21:15


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 19:14.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0