 | | | 
23.03.2022, 16:10
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Lummerland
Posts: 5,661
Groaned at 235 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 10,535 Times in 4,123 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Maybe Russia started this war to make the US military industry rich? | | | | | Perhaps the US manipulated Russia into starting this war to make the US military rich.
| The following 3 users would like to thank slammer for this useful post: | | The following 3 users groan at slammer for this post: | | 
23.03.2022, 16:11
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,041
Groaned at 37 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 949 Times in 493 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | That he is crazy and dangerous.....we all know. In his mind, a world without Russia in command for at least what they consider their sphere of influence and vassal states is a world not worth living...
I wonder if there's anyone in his command centre willing to follow this last step though. | | | | | I follow your posts and I can understand the emotions. But saying things like "one must", "one has to", "we all know" - Ms. Amanpour is much better at that.
| 
23.03.2022, 16:35
| Member | | Join Date: May 2017 Location: Zurich
Posts: 117
Groaned at 16 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 214 Times in 116 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | I refer to the first link in post 4872. | | | | | You know, we can always dig the topic deeper and deeper with question "who started first?" and probably we will go back to the freaking Stone Age.
I propose something else instead. I will write how I see it and you can tell me where I'm wrong:
1. There is a group (Putin and Co. + oligarchs), which wants to drain undue money from Russian citizens.
2. In order to keep that draining going steadliy they need to maintain status quo by propaganda and promises about coming back to "Great Russia times" and saying that NATO is dangerous for Russia.
Now, please imagine we remove that extreme greed from that group. What are we left with? Because I believe we are left with normal, civilized country which doesn't need to be afraid of NATO and can prosper peacefully together with rest of Europe.
If you agree with me up to this point you can clearly see that extreme greed=evil, which makes things quite black&white.
Now you can tell me where I'm wrong with my view or assumptions
Last edited by Excad; 23.03.2022 at 16:57.
| 
23.03.2022, 16:42
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,562
Groaned at 105 Times in 98 Posts
Thanked 3,257 Times in 1,325 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | You know, we can always dig the topic deeper and deeper with question "who started first?" and probably we will go back to the freaking Stone Age.
I propose something else instead. I will write how I see it and you can tell me where I'm wrong:
1. There is a group (Putin and Co. + oligarchs), which wants to drain undue money from Russian citizens.
2. In order to keep that draining going steadliy they need to maintain status quo by propaganda and promises about coming back to "Great Russia times" and saying that NATO is dangerous for Russia.
Now, please imagine we remove that extreme greed from that group. What are we left with? Because I believe we are left with normal, civilized country which doesn't need to be afraid of NATO and can prosper peacefully together with rest of Europe.
If you agree with me up to this point you can clearly see that greed=evil, which makes things quite black&white.
Now you can tell me where I'm wrong with my view or assumptions  | | | | | thanks, its a start, please go on....
| 
23.03.2022, 17:01
| Senior Member | | Join Date: May 2007 Location: Geneva
Posts: 457
Groaned at 63 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 1,311 Times in 732 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
15:56 UK government ignored warnings about Putin, says ex-defence attaché | Quote: |  | | | A former defence attaché at the British embassy in Moscow says that his warnings of "a long, dark march to war" by Vladimir Putin were ignored.
Air Commodore Carl Scott, now retired, writes in a letter to the Financial Times that he and his colleagues "reported the inevitability of conflict in detail, regularly and with the despair of Cassandra".
The former senior officer alleges that in the years he served in Moscow (2011-16), in the UK things changed and "all was subjugated to the City, all served the interests of our lucrative status as a safe haven for corrupt, and corrupting, wealth". | | | | | Former defence attaché: Warnings of Putin's invasion ignored in favour of UK banks | Quote: |  | | | "It was not until I returned to the UK on the eve of our withdrawal from the EU, a manoeuvre which greatly emboldened those in Moscow, that I understood how our society had changed in the years I was serving overseas.
"All was subjugated to the City, all served the interests of our lucrative status as a safe haven for corrupt, and corrupting, wealth.
"The values we were demanding of other nations had long since faded from our own actions.
"I despair at the decisions Putin has taken, but even more at the prospect of finding credible leadership at home in the UK among those who have compromised so long with his regime and the wealth it offered," he added. | | | | | | The following 2 users would like to thank Reb77Br for this useful post: | | 
23.03.2022, 17:05
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Kt.Zh
Posts: 12,166
Groaned at 487 Times in 402 Posts
Thanked 19,073 Times in 9,648 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | I follow your posts and I can understand the emotions. But saying things like "one must", "one has to", "we all know" - Ms. Amanpour is much better at that. | | | | | I follow your posts too and frankly your last post was....wow. | Quote: | |  | | | No, it is not. Follow the money. To make my statement simple - I mean the (in particular, US) military industry.
PS CNN is also propaganda, just a little bit more sophisticated than Russian TV. Or maybe it's the other way around ���� | | | | | I don't care about CNN btw, but Christiane Amanpour is good. That interview just demonstrated how good at lying some people are. Please watch it and maybe you can explain to me to why that Kremlin spokesperson she interviewed did nothing but deny the obvious i.e. the invasion, the aggression. I watched that guy, I don't need CNN to explain to me anything.
Maybe you can do it without "one must, one has" and all the mannerism that apparently you spotted at me. 
(I don't think I have used them more often than others here but hey ho..)
Last edited by greenmount; 23.03.2022 at 17:21.
| This user would like to thank greenmount for this useful post: | | 
23.03.2022, 17:14
| Senior Member | | Join Date: May 2007 Location: Geneva
Posts: 457
Groaned at 63 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 1,311 Times in 732 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Last night I have watched an interview of Christiane Amanpour with Kremlin's spokesperson Dmitry Peskov. I don't know how she did it (keep her nerves in check) but she did it. It was an excellent interview in the sense that she wasn't afraid or sickened to ask about what's going on in Ukraine, Russia's plans etc.
I had the feeling I watched the "minister of truth" from 1984 speaking. Hallucinatory.
At this point I think Putin is not only the greatest unkrainophobe but also the greatest russophobe on earth. What on earth do they plan to do with these countries..... | | | | | I saw that interview too and thought one of Peskov's comments was particularly troubling from the point of view of a possible spread of the war, i.e. the allegation that several countries in eastern Europe apart from Ukraine have biological weapons programmes.
| This user would like to thank Reb77Br for this useful post: | | 
23.03.2022, 17:23
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Kt.Zh
Posts: 12,166
Groaned at 487 Times in 402 Posts
Thanked 19,073 Times in 9,648 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | I saw that interview too and thought one of Peskov's comments was particularly troubling from the point of view of a possible spread of the war, i.e. the allegation that several countries in eastern Europe apart from Ukraine have biological weapons programmes. | | | | | He said that too? lol
Must watch it again, though it really makes me sick.
Edit: oh yeah, he said that US has developed programmes "in various countries" around Russian federation including Ukraine.
As I said, "minister of truth".
Last edited by greenmount; 23.03.2022 at 17:35.
| 
23.03.2022, 17:46
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,041
Groaned at 37 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 949 Times in 493 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | I follow your posts too and frankly your last post was....wow. 
I don't care about CNN btw, but Christiane Amanpour is good. That interview just demonstrated how good at lying some people are. Please watch it and maybe you can explain to me to why that Kremlin spokesperson she interviewed did nothing but deny the obvious i.e. the invasion, the aggression. I watched that guy, I don't need CNN to explain to me anything.
Maybe you can do it without "one must, one has" and all the mannerism that apparently you spotted at me. 
(I don't think I have used them more often than others here but hey ho..) | | | | | Excad AND Greenmount, thanks for replies with substance. I will get back in 24 hours at latest. Apologies in advance - I had no time to participate in this discussion in the last 6 days and I need time to quote as precisely as I can to illustrate the point, at least in the Peskov interview.
I post another reply below - please do not mix both in one pot, the next post is for information sharing purpose only. Thanks!
| 
23.03.2022, 18:05
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Basel
Posts: 15,587
Groaned at 304 Times in 204 Posts
Thanked 19,871 Times in 8,375 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
For those wanting to read the arguments why this is the fault of 'The West' see here: https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-conte...-Crisis-Is.pdf | The following 4 users would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post: | | 
23.03.2022, 18:20
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Kt.Zh
Posts: 12,166
Groaned at 487 Times in 402 Posts
Thanked 19,073 Times in 9,648 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | | | | | | Yeah, I stopped after the first page. I think this justification is for those who cannot accept that Nato has expanded for a reason and no country is responsible for the acts of another. At this moment Russia is the aggressor not Nato, not Ukraine or anyone else.
I also wondered if this horrible war could have been avoided through diplomatic talks, negotiations etc and I have no answer to this date. But I started to believe it was planned for a very long time.
I am sick of the blame game, it just doesn't help anyone in Ukraine.
Last edited by greenmount; 23.03.2022 at 18:36.
| The following 3 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post: | | 
23.03.2022, 18:45
| Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Zürich
Posts: 800
Groaned at 109 Times in 69 Posts
Thanked 1,108 Times in 550 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | You might want to learn to make an argument. The post above is a perfect example of a general statement with zero substance. | | | | | repeat the same in front of the mirror
| 
23.03.2022, 19:05
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Kt.Zh
Posts: 12,166
Groaned at 487 Times in 402 Posts
Thanked 19,073 Times in 9,648 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
@vladest
I think arguing with each other on EF is silly....Aleydis is definitely against this war as far as I understood and even if our opinions may differ in regards to why, how, what for it all started we can still be more understanding with each other here....if a bunch of people who are basically nice (I think) cannot agree to disagree or maybe just leave the room when the atmosphere is too heated....what can we expect from this crazy world.. | The following 3 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post: | | 
23.03.2022, 19:16
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: May 2008 Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 12,381
Groaned at 721 Times in 605 Posts
Thanked 24,090 Times in 12,615 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Perhaps the US manipulated Russia into starting this war to make the US military rich. | | | | | How would the military become rich, they are not in combat?
A US military member assigned to or deployed to a combat zone receives bonus combat pay (officially called "hostile fire" or "imminent danger pay"), at a rate of $225 per month.
| 
23.03.2022, 19:19
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Lummerland
Posts: 5,661
Groaned at 235 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 10,535 Times in 4,123 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
After reading that Putin openly threatened the US with nuclear war is there anybody else getting a Cuba vibe?
| 
23.03.2022, 19:39
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Lummerland
Posts: 5,661
Groaned at 235 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 10,535 Times in 4,123 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | How would the military become rich, they are not in combat?
A US military member assigned to or deployed to a combat zone receives bonus combat pay (officially called "hostile fire" or "imminent danger pay"), at a rate of $225 per month. | | | | | The military industrial complex is raking in the cash. Check the Dow Jones.
| This user would like to thank slammer for this useful post: | | 
23.03.2022, 19:42
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: SZ
Posts: 4,089
Groaned at 399 Times in 285 Posts
Thanked 8,790 Times in 3,758 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | | | | | | Mearsheimer is a boardgame fool who rather sides with the Russians than admitting he was wrong.
| 
23.03.2022, 20:19
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: May 2008 Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 12,381
Groaned at 721 Times in 605 Posts
Thanked 24,090 Times in 12,615 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | | | | | | So what? War is a nasty business and both sides try to get the best fighters by whatever means.
The Russians have been using the Wagner group for mercenaries in Ukraine for almost ten years.
Reiterating whatever "promises" claimed to be given to Gorbachov is naive.
Everybody knows a politician's promise is only as good, at best, until the next election, or to quote a former UK Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, "a week is a long time in politics.
An even worse situation with any US promises where the political strategy/direction can change 180 degrees every four, or eight, years.
As several have posted here to make a political promise real you must have a treaty, remember, as they say, a verbal promise is only worth the paper it is written on.
Everybody knew the Soviet Union was collapsing. The Western powers were charitable to Gorbachov by pretending he could somehow control this collapse but, in reality, it did not matter what they negotiated or promised - the Soviet Empire was finished.
| This user would like to thank marton for this useful post: | | 
23.03.2022, 20:38
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Basel
Posts: 15,587
Groaned at 304 Times in 204 Posts
Thanked 19,871 Times in 8,375 Posts
| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Mearsheimer is a boardgame fool who rather sides with the Russians than admitting he was wrong. | | | | | personally, i think assigning blame is a waste of time. let alone name-calling. there's a humanitarian disaster already in progress and the focus should be to avoid as much as possible further tragedies.
unfortunately, if no satisfactory deal can be had, for russia, they might consider their next best option to be to just destroy ukraine rather than risk having a nato-aligned country on their doorstep.
| The following 3 users would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post: | |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (1 members and 1 guests) | TinyK | Thread Tools | | Display Modes | Linear Mode |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts HTML code is Off | | | All times are GMT +2. The time now is 00:54. | |