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Old 04.04.2022, 07:43
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Civilians tied up and shot in the head infront of their homes. The SS would be proud.

Russian barbarianism.
The stories coming out are indeed pretty horrific and at this point I would guess it exceeds even the most pessimistic outlook at what the Russians would do... did anyone really expect this level of cold barbarity against civilians, whether young or old? I mean, it's not often this statement can be used appropriately on the internet, but it really is like the Nazis and I would say in terms of sheer calculated brutality far exceeds the atrocities we have seen from any Western nation in any conflict since WW2.

What Russia is doing to the Ukranians is, in terms of the brutal level of murderous violence seen, what you would expect a country to do to it's worst enemy. I literally cannot understand how this benefits Russia in the slightest, because any moral high ground they have been clinging to is long fallen by the roadside.
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  #5382  
Old 04.04.2022, 08:28
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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The stories coming out are indeed pretty horrific and at this point I would guess it exceeds even the most pessimistic outlook at what the Russians would do... did anyone really expect this level of cold barbarity against civilians, whether young or old?
In the final throes of WWII as the Soviets marched towards Berlin, there were documented cases of mass suicides in some German towns out of fear of what the Russians would do to them. Obviously the Soviets then were more motivated by retribution, but still...

War always demonstrates that given the circumstances, there are almost no limits on what a human being can inflict upon another.

To put things in perspective though, atrocities like this and worse are BAU in conflict zones in other parts of the world...they simply aren't close enough to Europe for us to care.
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  #5383  
Old 04.04.2022, 08:31
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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The stories coming out are indeed pretty horrific and at this point I would guess it exceeds even the most pessimistic outlook at what the Russians would do... did anyone really expect this level of cold barbarity against civilians, whether young or old? I mean, it's not often this statement can be used appropriately on the internet, but it really is like the Nazis and I would say in terms of sheer calculated brutality far exceeds the atrocities we have seen from any Western nation in any conflict since WW2.

What Russia is doing to the Ukranians is, in terms of the brutal level of murderous violence seen, what you would expect a country to do to it's worst enemy. I literally cannot understand how this benefits Russia in the slightest, because any moral high ground they have been clinging to is long fallen by the roadside.
I think most people were ready to see the history repeating itself but not at this level. Our grandparents could tell a lot of stories about the atrocities against civilians committed during the Russian occupation, including the famous deportations of the native people of occupied lands and territories to the Siberian taiga (and in the ex-soviet republics bringing instead Russian ethnics) and other far far away places where many died of starvation, cold and diseases. Some were not allowed to establish in one place and were moved every year or two, to build communism. Less than 50% of deportees ever returned to their native lands and places, even for a visit. Thos who did return in in '56 or '68 were broken (a sinister term could be "re-educated"), and lived the rest of their lives under the label "enemy of the people" for absolutely no crimes committed. Also, read more about gulags.
Chuff, in the West you never study the crimes of Stalinism (perhaps that's why many Westerners are fascinated by socialism and authoritarianism), just what the nazis did, and that's why you can't believe anything. I suppose cheap oil and gas always came with strings attached.
Also, the episode with desperate refugees at our borders is not new for some countries. Part of my family were refugees from the ex-soviet space. They didn't have an easy life.They had to live their houses and everything else behind. Those who are old now and were kids back then are simply shocked. Just imagine re-living that trauma all over again.

Last edited by greenmount; 04.04.2022 at 08:55.
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  #5384  
Old 04.04.2022, 08:57
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Chuff, in the West you never study the crimes of Stalinism
This isn't true. It is sometimes taught in schools. Many of us have read Solzhenitsyn's The Gulag Archipelago. Chilling stuff.
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Old 04.04.2022, 10:42
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Best way to define "Ami" would be the way we use "Yanks" As I said before, its all in the context.
Still disagree, Yanks is almost exclusively used with a negative connotation whereas Amis can be used just as easily with neutral or even positive connotations.

Example: a british football commentator wouldn't refer to the American team as " the Yanks". A swiss or german commentator would have no qualms with referring to them as " die Amis ".
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Old 04.04.2022, 10:53
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Still disagree, Yanks is almost exclusively used with a negative connotation whereas Amis can be used just as easily with neutral or even positive connotations.

Example: a british football commentator wouldn't refer to the American team as " the Yanks". A swiss or german commentator would have no qualms with referring to them as " die Amis ".
Am myself a Yank and got nothing against it. Just don't call me a Schickimicki.
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Old 04.04.2022, 11:46
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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but it really is like the Nazis and I would say in terms of sheer calculated brutality far exceeds the atrocities we have seen from any Western nation in any conflict since WW2.
Hitting soft targets like civilians is really just business as usual for invading armies, especially a disorganized and retreating army that is slowly being decimated by the people you have just invaded.
And as to we havnt seen this sort of thing from a western nation since WW2... Well, where should I start?
British empire in India during the Partition?
My lai?
Jugoslavia?
There is a pretty long list of western atrocities since WW2
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  #5388  
Old 04.04.2022, 11:51
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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And as to we havnt seen this sort of thing from a western nation since WW2...
200,000 dead Iraqi civilians is a good place to start.

Nevertheless, the scenes from Bucha are utterly vile.
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  #5389  
Old 04.04.2022, 12:11
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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This isn't true. It is sometimes taught in schools. Many of us have read Solzhenitsyn's The Gulag Archipelago. Chilling stuff.
It probably depends where. While US had its share of witch hunting, there were (and still are) legions of French and Germans enamoured in anything Soviet Union and Communist China. Where would this infantile infatuation in everything Putin of the current French, Austrian or German politicians could come, and could prosper, if not in carefully managed historical narrative that somehow glossed over millions upon millions of Stalin's victims?

Last edited by Buenzli; 04.04.2022 at 12:30.
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  #5390  
Old 04.04.2022, 12:39
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Hitting soft targets like civilians is really just business as usual for invading armies, especially a disorganized and retreating army that is slowly being decimated by the people you have just invaded.
And....your point is?

We should just let it happen? Pretend this is like any other war?

Flash news: it is not.
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  #5391  
Old 04.04.2022, 12:46
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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And....your point is?

We should just let it happen? Pretend this is like any other war?

Flash news: it is not.
Something different between withdrawing under fire, and running to mama with your tail between your legs.
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Old 04.04.2022, 13:15
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Something different between withdrawing under fire, and running to mama with your tail between your legs.
Maybe.

Anyways. ...I have a very special wish for all those imbeciles and useful idiots who want Ukraine to just surrender and do as ordered.

Something along the line of "Russian warship, go to...."
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Old 04.04.2022, 13:20
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Of course, it's yellow journalism, so please mind the writing-style and overall framing.

Anyway, this is truly Karl Popper's Paradox of Intolerance: "The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant."

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Russian flags and loud music car parade of shame in Berlin

It is the day when the images of massacred civilians in Bucha, Ukraine, shake the world. But these Berlin Putin understanders living in our democracy abuse the right of assembly for their propaganda show!

With waving Russian flags and Soviet flags, 900 people gathered on Sunday for the motorcade of shame! And present themselves as victims.

According to the Berlin police, the move with several hundred vehicles was registered under the motto "No propaganda in the school - protection for Russian-speaking people, no discrimination". In connection with the question "Soon we too?" the chairman of the meeting is said to have even stuck a Star of David plus the word Russian on his car. He had to remove it on instructions from the police.
https://www.bild.de/regional/berlin/...8904.bild.html
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Old 04.04.2022, 13:59
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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And....your point is?

We should just let it happen? Pretend this is like any other war?

Flash news: it is not.
Uhhh! Yes it is, it’s just like any other war since monkeys started hitting each other with rocks.
Dead is dead… check!
Misery…. Check!
Suffering… check!
Rape… check!
Plunder…. Check!
Putting cities to the sword….. uhh! Check!
Am I missing something?
On the how and why, that’s just cosmetics.
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Old 04.04.2022, 14:14
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Uhhh! Yes it is, it’s just like any other war since monkeys started hitting each other with rocks.
Dead is dead… check!
Misery…. Check!
Suffering… check!
Rape… check!
Plunder…. Check!
Putting cities to the sword….. uhh! Check!
Am I missing something?
On the how and why, that’s just cosmetics.
Uhhmm.......I think you are willingly missing not only a lot of history (think centuries) and historical background here but also the entire purpose of this war. But I'll leave it at that, I don't have that much time on my hands.
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Old 04.04.2022, 14:24
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Uhhmm.......I think you are willingly missing not only a lot of history (think centuries) and historical background here but also the entire purpose of this war. But I'll leave it at that, I don't have that much time on my hands.
War is war and it has its own laws.
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Old 04.04.2022, 14:37
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Uhhh! Yes it is, it’s just like any other war since monkeys started hitting each other with rocks.
Dead is dead… check!
Misery…. Check!
Suffering… check!
Rape… check!
Plunder…. Check!
Putting cities to the sword….. uhh! Check!
Am I missing something?
On the how and why, that’s just cosmetics.
Yes, you're missing something. The checklist should be a bit longer. No chlorine gas as WW1, no atomic bombs as WW2. I have no idea if agricultural soil is being polluted as the France-Belgium border back on WW1. So far, no biological warfare in spite of the tools being developed and ready to use.

So, in spite of us being emotional monkeys, there's some restraint.

It's counterintuitive, but the best outcome for Russia is that those soldiers doing stupid stuff never come back. If they do come back, they'll keep doing the same at home.
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  #5398  
Old 04.04.2022, 14:46
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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It probably depends where. While US had its share of witch hunting, there were (and still are) legions of French and Germans enamoured in anything Soviet Union and Communist China. Where would this infantile infatuation in everything Putin of the current French, Austrian or German politicians could come, and could prosper, if not in carefully managed historical narrative that somehow glossed over millions upon millions of Stalin's victims?
Spot on. Not much about ethnic cleansing done by the soviets, deportations, gulags, war crimes, all the atrocities. This infatuation comes from vile ignorance or stupidity. Or whatever other form of bigotry.
Infantile is when some teens think svastika is a cool tattoo, or whatever other Second World War and Soviet memorabilia. We're talking about way deeper issues here though.
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Old 04.04.2022, 17:34
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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The stories coming out are indeed pretty horrific and at this point I would guess it exceeds even the most pessimistic outlook at what the Russians would do... did anyone really expect this level of cold barbarity against civilians, whether young or old? I mean, it's not often this statement can be used appropriately on the internet, but it really is like the Nazis and I would say in terms of sheer calculated brutality far exceeds the atrocities we have seen from any Western nation in any conflict since WW2.

What Russia is doing to the Ukranians is, in terms of the brutal level of murderous violence seen, what you would expect a country to do to it's worst enemy. I literally cannot understand how this benefits Russia in the slightest, because any moral high ground they have been clinging to is long fallen by the roadside.
The Russians were in Butscha. The Russians are leaving Butscha. Naked, burnt, bound and shot Ukrainians are lying in the streets and Switzerland still needs an independent commission of enquiry to establish that these were probably not suicides and that it would be good to get things straight.
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Old 04.04.2022, 18:12
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Spot on. Not much about ethnic cleansing done by the soviets, deportations, gulags, war crimes, all the atrocities. This infatuation comes from vile ignorance or stupidity. Or whatever other form of bigotry.
Infantile is when some teens think svastika is a cool tattoo, or whatever other Second World War and Soviet memorabilia. We're talking about way deeper issues here though.
Sadly we have lulled ourselves into believing we are living in more civilised times, such a horrible rude awakening now.

According to Ukraine Ministry of Defence (UMOD) web site today the Russians are now into mobilization of reserves in: Krasnodar Territory, Perm Region, Republic of Dagestan, Ingushetia, Kalmykia.
UMOD write that participants in war with Ukraine are being told they can improve their financial position due to so-called "trophies", that is, robbery and looting.

The poor Ukrainians will not have much of a country left after all this is over.
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