Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #5601  
Old 08.04.2022, 13:15
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Zurich
Posts: 588
Groaned at 103 Times in 74 Posts
Thanked 1,583 Times in 823 Posts
John William has a reputation beyond reputeJohn William has a reputation beyond reputeJohn William has a reputation beyond reputeJohn William has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
I do not agree that the days of the battle tank are numbered.

What Russia has demonstrated in Ukraine is first that if you fail to follow the military doctrine of close air and flanking infantry support for your tank advances then you will lose your tanks.
Secondly, Soviet era tanks do not stand up well against anti tank weapons.
Fact is tanks are still a liability as whatever improvements are made over the years there's always a counter measure against them
& obviously they will always present a greater target.

Whereas humaniods encapsulated in Robocop type gear or even android humanoids will no doubt be all over the place in future conflicts
together with a vast array of drones.
Reply With Quote
  #5602  
Old 08.04.2022, 13:56
slammer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lummerland
Posts: 5,661
Groaned at 235 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 10,535 Times in 4,123 Posts
slammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
maybe dropping sanctions wil be part of the deal-making and wider negotiations.
"Build your enemy a golden bridge to retreat over" attributed to Sun Tzu
Reply With Quote
  #5603  
Old 08.04.2022, 13:59
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 8,109
Groaned at 514 Times in 378 Posts
Thanked 11,354 Times in 5,272 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Reports on the BBC radio about two missiles targeting a train station in E. Ukraine where large queues of evacuees were patiently waiting for trains West.

I assume these weapons are reasonably accurate and two suggest they hit what they were aimed at.

What is the strategic objective to deliberately killing fleeing civilians? And deterring others from fleeing? Surely fewer civilians make it easier for the Russians.

The only explanation, to me, is simply kill for the sake of killing.
Now reported to be cluster munitions. The gift that just keeps on giving.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank bowlie for this useful post:
  #5604  
Old 08.04.2022, 14:00
slammer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lummerland
Posts: 5,661
Groaned at 235 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 10,535 Times in 4,123 Posts
slammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
You should write a post on Reddit to complain

Seriously, what vushka said is literally what President Zelensky said in his own words in an Economist interview last week. To paraphrase, he said that there is basically split in his allies: Those that want a quick resolution to this war like Germany and France, those that want Russia to be defeated/humiliated militarily like Poland and Czechia, and finally those that want a prolonged war in order to weaken Russia like US/UK.

Source

Volodymyr Zelensky in his own words

https://www.economist.com/europe/202...-his-own-words

For those who don't have a subscription you can watch the interview here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNjiRmIWtss
The US havn´t learned anything from the end of the first world war, when the allied did a number on Germany and took them to the cleaners.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank slammer for this useful post:
  #5605  
Old 08.04.2022, 14:16
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 5,579
Groaned at 105 Times in 96 Posts
Thanked 8,182 Times in 3,834 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
The US havn´t learned anything from the end of the first world war, when the allied did a number on Germany and took them to the cleaners.
Marshall Plan, West Germany.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #5606  
Old 08.04.2022, 15:28
slammer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lummerland
Posts: 5,661
Groaned at 235 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 10,535 Times in 4,123 Posts
slammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Marshall Plan, West Germany.
That was the second, not the first one.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank slammer for this useful post:
  #5607  
Old 08.04.2022, 15:37
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 5,579
Groaned at 105 Times in 96 Posts
Thanked 8,182 Times in 3,834 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
That was the second, not the first one.
Indeed, it's lessons learned from WW1 and the carrot comes after the war ends. Before war ends, only stick.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #5608  
Old 08.04.2022, 15:52
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kt.Zh
Posts: 12,166
Groaned at 487 Times in 402 Posts
Thanked 19,073 Times in 9,648 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Stupid people like me assume messages by Ukraine diplomats, Ukraine embassy in the UK, are representative of the Ukraine's public communication.

https://twitter.com/UkrEmbLondon/sta...06134692970499
He did ask for weapons (and ammunition...) with various occasions, but I think this is the most relevant one


Quote:
President Volodymyr Zelensky pressed a NATO summit Thursday to flood weapons into Ukraine and Western allies responded with new sanctions against Russia, promises of military aid, and discussion of expelling Moscow from the international G20 body.


As battles raged across Ukraine, with television footage showing a large Russian warship ablaze at dockside near the southern city of Mariupol, Zelensky addressed the emergency NATO summit and a G7 leaders' meeting by video link.

He said the West should provide "all the weapons we need" to "prevent the deaths of Ukrainians from Russian strikes, from Russian occupation."

Kicking off a day of intense diplomacy, US President Joe Biden made clear that the Western alliance was listening.
https://www.france24.com/en/live-new...sure-on-russia


Again, to say that "the West" wants them to continue fighting whereas they would rather surrender is a BIG LIE.
Reply With Quote
  #5609  
Old 08.04.2022, 16:34
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Zurich
Posts: 117
Groaned at 16 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 214 Times in 116 Posts
Excad has earned the respect of manyExcad has earned the respect of manyExcad has earned the respect of many
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
He did ask for weapons (and ammunition...) with various occasions, but I think this is the most relevant one



https://www.france24.com/en/live-new...sure-on-russia


Again, to say that "the West" wants them to continue fighting whereas they would rather surrender is a BIG LIE.
Ukrainians don't want to surrender, but I'm sure you will agree, that "the longer Putin bleeds, the bigger the probability of removing him is".

What happens if war ends today, sanctions are cancelled, and Putin stays in power? I don't think that "Problem solved" stamp would be ready to use in that scenario.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Excad for this useful post:
  #5610  
Old 08.04.2022, 16:41
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 15,587
Groaned at 304 Times in 204 Posts
Thanked 19,871 Times in 8,375 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Ukrainians don't want to surrender, but I'm sure you will agree, that "the longer Putin bleeds, the bigger the probability of removing him is".
I'm not sure if it's really true that dragging it on will make it easier to remove him.

Quote:
View Post
What happens if war ends today, sanctions are cancelled, and Putin stays in power?
Fewer people die. But some long-term workable agreement needs to be reached first.

It seems that UA is ready to agree to abandon NATO membership (wouldn't have happened anyway so that one is a red herring) but maybe RU loses out here because after this episode, UA will have more weapons than ever and is being armed by NATO even if not a member.

UA agreed to not seek nuclear weapons.

Finding an agreement on Crimea and Donbass seems much more difficult.

The outcome of the war is still a big unknown, can one side or the other achieve a quick and decisive victory? Or will it be a multi-year drawn out affair. If the latter, will Russia be willing to fight over years or will they use more extreme measures to end it quickly?
__________________
By replying to this post, you hereby grant Phil_MCR a royalty-free license to use, in any way, anything posted by you on the internet. If you do not accept, stop using EF and delete your account.
Reply With Quote
  #5611  
Old 08.04.2022, 16:49
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Zurich
Posts: 117
Groaned at 16 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 214 Times in 116 Posts
Excad has earned the respect of manyExcad has earned the respect of manyExcad has earned the respect of many
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
I'm not sure if it's really true that dragging it on will make it easier to remove him.



Fewer people die. But some long-term workable agreement needs to be reached first.
It's not about dragging - it's about draining Russia financially deeper. So deep, that even the zombies in Russia will wake up because of the poverty.

And just to be clear - I don't like that concept at all, but I can imagine that for some of the west countries it can be seen as useful.
Reply With Quote
  #5612  
Old 08.04.2022, 16:59
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 4,089
Groaned at 399 Times in 285 Posts
Thanked 8,790 Times in 3,758 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

The only way Ukraine agrees to neutrality is if it is armed to the teeth. Allegedly Russia demanded that Ukraine cannot have more than 50.000 soldiers ... demilitarization, you know.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank komsomolez for this useful post:
  #5613  
Old 08.04.2022, 17:34
TinyK's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Left bank of Lake Zurich
Posts: 1,444
Groaned at 66 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 1,577 Times in 797 Posts
TinyK has a reputation beyond reputeTinyK has a reputation beyond reputeTinyK has a reputation beyond reputeTinyK has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
What is the strategic objective to deliberately killing fleeing civilians?
Did you see any point in any other "strategic" decisions of Russia in this war?

Russia is a terroristic organisation and uses the methods of terrorists. That's its main strategy.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank TinyK for this useful post:
  #5614  
Old 08.04.2022, 17:57
NotAllThere's Avatar
Modulo 2
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 16,199
Groaned at 348 Times in 301 Posts
Thanked 25,607 Times in 10,426 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Did you see any point in any other "strategic" decisions of Russia in this war?

Russia is a terroristic organisation and uses the methods of terrorists. That's its main strategy.
Cf: Syria.
Reply With Quote
  #5615  
Old 08.04.2022, 19:56
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kt.Zh
Posts: 12,166
Groaned at 487 Times in 402 Posts
Thanked 19,073 Times in 9,648 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Ukrainians don't want to surrender, but I'm sure you will agree, that "the longer Putin bleeds, the bigger the probability of removing him is".

What happens if war ends today, sanctions are cancelled, and Putin stays in power? I don't think that "Problem solved" stamp would be ready to use in that scenario.
He's a thug and will strike again once the West is sleeping in their shoes again.
Reply With Quote
  #5616  
Old 08.04.2022, 19:58
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 15,587
Groaned at 304 Times in 204 Posts
Thanked 19,871 Times in 8,375 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
It's not about dragging - it's about draining Russia financially deeper. So deep, that even the zombies in Russia will wake up because of the poverty.

And just to be clear - I don't like that concept at all, but I can imagine that for some of the west countries it can be seen as useful.
But you have clear examples such as Cuba and Iran where it didn't work at all even after many years.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #5617  
Old 08.04.2022, 20:18
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 4,089
Groaned at 399 Times in 285 Posts
Thanked 8,790 Times in 3,758 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

This is one of the more bizarre statements of Ms Zakharova. Maybe the native speakers can listen in to say whether this feels real. My first reaction was "must be fake".

https://twitter.com/SamRamani2/statu...65165227958272
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank komsomolez for this useful post:
  #5618  
Old 08.04.2022, 20:25
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 5,579
Groaned at 105 Times in 96 Posts
Thanked 8,182 Times in 3,834 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
But you have clear examples such as Cuba and Iran where it didn't work at all even after many years.
When was the last time Cuba and Iran invaded other countries? It works.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #5619  
Old 08.04.2022, 20:29
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Zurich
Posts: 117
Groaned at 16 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 214 Times in 116 Posts
Excad has earned the respect of manyExcad has earned the respect of manyExcad has earned the respect of many
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
But you have clear examples such as Cuba and Iran where it didn't work at all even after many years.
Who took down Tsar while being pushed to the edge?

"
As a result of the defeats suffered in World War I, there was a weakening of the authority of Tsar Nicholas II. The monarch believed that he was an instrument in the hand of God, answerable only to him, and was appointed by him to protect Orthodoxy and the Tsar's absolute power (self-rule)[13].

The Tsar lost real control over the country, and the Tsarina and Rasputin, if any minister opposed their opinion, urged the Tsar to resign the politician immediately. In this way, the most competent members of the government fell into disfavor. As a result, the government was made up almost entirely of losers and Rasputin's protégés. The Tsarina and Rasputin interfered in various areas of Russian empire life. The situation at the front and food shortages increased social discontent, which was focused on the Tsarina[14].
"

Sounds pretty familiar to me.
Reply With Quote
  #5620  
Old 08.04.2022, 20:35
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 4,089
Groaned at 399 Times in 285 Posts
Thanked 8,790 Times in 3,758 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
When was the last time Cuba and Iran invaded other countries? It works.
Iran is stirring up all sorts of conflicts in the Middle East and obviously that won't get better if the are becoming a nuclear power. So I am not sure this is a good example.

Sanctions are meant to punish bad behaviour, reduce the economic and technical capabilities to do more damage, and the removal of sanctions can serve as a motivator for rogue states to normalize. Can work, or not.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
crimea, russia, ukraine




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jewish Refugees in Switzerland during World War II zanskar International affairs/politics 48 16.06.2010 15:58
Book about Switzerland in the second world war [recommendation?] telandy Other/general 14 18.06.2007 20:15


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 00:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0