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16.04.2022, 22:36
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | It appears they bought it from Baldric.
Got a problem with democracy do you? | | | | | Cunning plan..
Black Sea Adder😉
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17.04.2022, 00:53
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
Claims another Russian General, Vladimir Frolov, killed; I am losing count of how many Russian generals were killed - also ignoring the rumours that they were killed by their own soldiers.
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17.04.2022, 08:50
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Estimates for replacing the cruiser Moscow could cost up to $1 Billion. | | | | | So just less than a week’s worth of natural gas exports.
Last edited by bowlie; 17.04.2022 at 09:01.
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17.04.2022, 21:47
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | So just less than a week’s worth of natural gas exports. | | | | | Less the 870 million that's trousered by the kleptocracy.
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19.04.2022, 09:59
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
In other news the Russian writer Ludmila Ulitskaya has found refuge in Berlin. She's safe for now. I was wondering how she's doing lately and an acquaintance who has interviewed her a couple of times before has shared this great news.
I really hope she'll get the international recognition she deserves one day, even if, most probably, post-mortem. This is the fate of the writers from certain parts of the world.
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19.04.2022, 15:09
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
I could draw a conclusion that, so far, the actual (as in: facts on the ground, fait accompli), stance of France and Germany towards Russian invasion doesn't bode well for the Eastern European EU/NATO countries.
All the talks about EU ties, NATO obligations etc are pure and simple a marketing BS. When push comes to shove, they are unable to sacrifice their economic interests (sanctions) and political ones (arms deliveries).
There are various reasons for that but effectively France and Germany can't counter Russia. That will be a lesson learned whom to covet as an ally, who to buy arms from, which economic ties to favour.
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19.04.2022, 15:28
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | I could draw a conclusion that, so far, the actual (as in: facts on the ground, fait accompli), stance of France and Germany towards Russian invasion doesn't bode well for the Eastern European EU/NATO countries.
All the talks about EU ties, NATO obligations etc are pure and simple a marketing BS. When push comes to shove, they are unable to sacrifice their economic interests (sanctions) and political ones (arms deliveries).
There are various reasons for that but effectively France and Germany can't counter Russia. That will be a lesson learned whom to covet as an ally, who to buy arms from, which economic ties to favour. | | | | | It is not NATO or the EU's obligation to help people who are not members. It's like complaining that you would have liked to be insured, but never got around to it. Goodwill may apply but there's no guarantee. If this invasion happened to an EU/NATO member and there were not more repercussions then I would call it all marketing BS.
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19.04.2022, 16:25
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | When push comes to shove, they are unable to sacrifice their economic interests (sanctions) and political ones (arms deliveries).
There are various reasons for that but effectively France and Germany can't counter Russia. That will be a lesson learned whom to covet as an ally, who to buy arms from, which economic ties to favour. | | | | | October 2014. French Pres. François Hollande stops the sale of 2 helicopter carriers from French shipyards to Russia because Crimea was invaded. Ships were sold 2-3 years later to Egypt, but French shipyards had a nice liquidity problem at the time. Fun fact, Marine Le Pen, current presidential candidate said really nice words on 2014. | Quote: |  | | | "It is the word of France that is engaged. However, we know full well that it was at the express request of the President of the United States that this contract was broken"....."We are not the poodles of the United States, let us finally become a free and sovereign nation again," she added...."How can a country sign a contract with France if it thinks that, at the simple request of Mr. Obama, France is going to give up at the last moment a contract on which it got some of the money already?" she wondered. | | | | | https://www.rtl.fr/actu/internationa...pen-7774979834
According to Mme. Le Pen, not honoring the ship delivery contract with Mr. Putin back on 2014 was literally sacrificing the future of French weapons manufacturing and exports. Anyway, few years later on EF: the French are unable do anything against their economist/shipbuilding interests | The following 2 users would like to thank Axa for this useful post: | | 
19.04.2022, 16:35
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: |  | | | According to Mme. Le Pen, not honoring the ship delivery contract with Mr. Putin back on 2014 was literally sacrificing the future of French weapons manufacturing and exports. Anyway, few years later on EF: the French are unable do anything against their economist/shipbuilding interests  | | | | | US will sanction Russia until last European, just like Europe will fight Russia until last Ukrainian.
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19.04.2022, 17:04
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | US will sanction Russia until last European, just like Europe will fight Russia until last Ukrainian. | | | | | Just as any army fights until the last child of poor people. Russians with the right last names are in London, Switzerland and Dubai.
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19.04.2022, 17:39
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | I could draw a conclusion that, so far, the actual (as in: facts on the ground, fait accompli), stance of France and Germany towards Russian invasion doesn't bode well for the Eastern European EU/NATO countries.
All the talks about EU ties, NATO obligations etc are pure and simple a marketing BS. When push comes to shove, they are unable to sacrifice their economic interests (sanctions) and political ones (arms deliveries).
There are various reasons for that but effectively France and Germany can't counter Russia. That will be a lesson learned whom to covet as an ally, who to buy arms from, which economic ties to favour. | | | | | Ukraine is neither a member of NATO nor of the EU so what were their or your expectations?
Meanwhile, Russia has announced they will build a new Black Sea Fleet flagship incorporating many design innovations including a glass bottom so the crew can see the former flagship.
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19.04.2022, 18:09
|  | Modulo 2 | | Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Baselland
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | I could draw a conclusion that, so far, the actual (as in: facts on the ground, fait accompli), stance of France and Germany towards Russian invasion doesn't bode well for the Eastern European EU/NATO countries.
All the talks about EU ties, NATO obligations etc are pure and simple a marketing BS. When push comes to shove, they are unable to sacrifice their economic interests (sanctions) and political ones (arms deliveries).
There are various reasons for that but effectively France and Germany can't counter Russia. That will be a lesson learned whom to covet as an ally, who to buy arms from, which economic ties to favour. | | | | | Said a spokesman for the Kremlin. | This user would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post: | | 
19.04.2022, 18:22
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | This user would like to thank Hausamsee for this useful post: | | 
19.04.2022, 18:35
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Said a spokesman for the Kremlin.  | | | | | If you are not able to make a counterargument, maybe say nothing at all. Not better than vladest, really 🙄
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19.04.2022, 19:07
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | If you are not able to make a counterargument, maybe say nothing at all. Not better than vladest, really | | | | | Oh. I'm sorry. Was it too subtle? The intimation was that the poster is simply parroting Putin's putrid propaganda.
HTH.
| 
19.04.2022, 20:20
| Banned | | Join Date: May 2021 Location: transcended.
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | It is not NATO or the EU's obligation to help people who are not members. It's like complaining that you would have liked to be insured, but never got around to it. Goodwill may apply but there's no guarantee. If this invasion happened to an EU/NATO member and there were not more repercussions then I would call it all marketing BS. | | | | | NATO/EU has no obligation to help non-members. it gets a bit more complicated considering ukraine was offered security assurances to give up their nuclear weapons though.
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19.04.2022, 20:23
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | NATO/EU has no obligation to help non-members. it gets a bit more complicated considering ukraine was offered security assurances to give up their nuclear weapons though. | | | | | Hilarious.
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19.04.2022, 21:31
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | NATO/EU has no obligation to help non-members. it gets a bit more complicated considering ukraine was offered security assurances to give up their nuclear weapons though. | | | | | " The United States, Russia, and the United Kingdom signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances on December 5, 1994.
A political agreement in accordance with the principles of the Helsinki Accords, the memorandum included security assurances against the threat or use of force against Ukraine’s territory or political independence.
The countries promised to respect the sovereignty and existing borders of Ukraine"
So nothing to do with NATO and/or the EU.
Russia has completely reneged on this agreement by invading Ukraine.
The only definition of these "security assurances" in the agreement is;
"Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used"."
Exactly what the US and the UK did at the Security Council on 25th February 2022 but Russia vetoed their proposal.
Instead of posting random and meaningless statements why don't you try posting a logical argument, we can discuss?
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19.04.2022, 22:19
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | " The United States, Russia, and the United Kingdom signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances on December 5, 1994.
A political agreement in accordance with the principles of the Helsinki Accords, the memorandum included security assurances against the threat or use of force against Ukraine’s territory or political independence.
The countries promised to respect the sovereignty and existing borders of Ukraine"
So nothing to do with NATO and/or the EU.
Russia has completely reneged on this agreement by invading Ukraine.
The only definition of these "security assurances" in the agreement is;
"Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used"."
Exactly what the US and the UK did at the Security Council on 25th February 2022 but Russia vetoed their proposal.
Instead of posting random and meaningless statements why don't you try posting a logical argument, we can discuss? | | | | | i don't think its meaningless. many ukrainians since think it was a mistake to give up their nuclear arms. perhaps now even more so now as their country is being invaded while the US and armchair warriors are urging them to fight and possibly die.
is it really any wonder that zelensky as well as many ukrainians feel abandoned?
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19.04.2022, 22:31
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | i don't think its meaningless. many ukrainians since think it was a mistake to give up their nuclear arms. perhaps now even more so now as their country is being invaded while the US and armchair warriors are urging them to fight and possibly die.
is it really any wonder that zelensky as well as many ukrainians feel abandoned? | | | | | And? I would happily throw Selensky and the entire country of Ukraine to the dogs, add Moldovia as a sweetner to boot, if my grandchildren were in danger of being nuked.
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