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  #561  
Old 14.06.2014, 06:50
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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It would be utterly naive to think that the US does not have an hostile policy against Russia to avoid at all price to change anything to the unipolar world inherited from the end of communism. I don't see why Russians, Chinese or any other place in the world should care about US geopolitical interest if they are not their own.
Unipolar world? For whom? Russians never really left the ex-satellite countries, and their influence is very strong for the moment, as well as the propaganda they are experts at. I would say that on the contrary, US has brought some balance. You can't defeat geography, so no worries, Russian interests will always be well represented/imposed in the EE countries.
Anyhow, interesting to see this huge difference in views between people who had Russia as neighbour, and people who didn't.

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Germany in fact is moving into neutrality. France and Britain simply do NOT WANT to "Mourir pour Danzig". It is not a question whether they CAN DO, it is the reaity that Britain and France just as in the days of Neville Chamberlain and Mr Daladier do NOT want to do anything. So that Mrs Merkel has chosen the Bismarck'sche approach

Interesting that now the three countries with German speaking majorities are at least defacto neutral.
Then France and especially Britain shouldn't have lured Ukrainians into believing something else. I don't expect honour in politics, of fairness, or...whatever, but this country is at war now....well, typical Western games.
As for Germany, it has practically conquered back everything they had before the end of the second WW, if you look at the map. Mission accomplished. In all fairness, the EE countries are not quite complaining about this.

Last edited by greenmount; 14.06.2014 at 07:11.
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  #562  
Old 14.06.2014, 10:02
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Anyhow, interesting to see this huge difference in views between people who had Russia as neighbour, and people who didn't.
.
Don't make it a personal thing, this is cheap. I've said often enough that I don't even like Russia. Understanding and agreeing are two different things, please don't mix the up.
I've said the same to a very anti-US friend of mine from Québec.
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  #563  
Old 15.06.2014, 12:51
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Unipolar world? For whom? Russians never really left the ex-satellite countries, and their influence is very strong for the moment, as well as the propaganda they are experts at. I would say that on the contrary, US has brought some balance. You can't defeat geography, so no worries, Russian interests will always be well represented/imposed in the EE countries.
Anyhow, interesting to see this huge difference in views between people who had Russia as neighbour, and people who didn't.



Then France and especially Britain shouldn't have lured Ukrainians into believing something else. I don't expect honour in politics, of fairness, or...whatever, but this country is at war now....well, typical Western games.
As for Germany, it has practically conquered back everything they had before the end of the second WW, if you look at the map. Mission accomplished. In all fairness, the EE countries are not quite complaining about this.
No, Germany only re-united West Germany with Central Germany (GDR) but OST-DEUTSCHLAND = Schlesien/Silesia, Pommern /Pommerania and Ost-Preussen/EastPrussia are still Polish.

Britain and France of course for a long time maintained some rethorics without even considering to work accordingly.

And here the map of "real" Germany

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch...hes_Reich1.png
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  #564  
Old 15.06.2014, 13:54
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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And here the map of "real" Germany
Thirty years ago, I would have been on your side on that one because the eastern territories were still officially referred in schools to as "under polish administration".

Not anymore.

There is no border ambiguity in Germany's Germans' minds at all at present time. In a German mind, Poland is there for holidays, shopping and social dumping, not for staying there. There is a slightly higher pressure on houses in the Sudetenland due to proximity to the border, but frankly, I put my money on more Germans with a holiday house in Danmark than ex-refugees with one in the grand parents' home town in the eastern territories.
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  #565  
Old 15.06.2014, 14:37
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Thirty years ago, I would have been on your side on that one because the eastern territories were still officially referred in schools to as "under polish administration".

Not anymore.

There is no border ambiguity in Germany's Germans' minds at all at present time. In a German mind, Poland is there for holidays, shopping and social dumping, not for staying there. There is a slightly higher pressure on houses in the Sudetenland due to proximity to the border, but frankly, I put my money on more Germans with a holiday house in Danmark than ex-refugees with one in the grand parents' home town in the eastern territories.
Funny thing is that with the EU in place their borders are mostly just on paper anyway.
Local laws and taxes vary of course but there are very slow moving initiatives to harmonise such things.
Languages also vary but are usually not strictly defined by borders; it is quite common for people to speak the same dialect in areas on both side of the borders. English is also becoming ubiquitous.
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Old 15.06.2014, 17:32
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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...Russians never really left the ex-satellite countries, and their influence is very strong for the moment, as well as the propaganda they are experts at. I would say that on the contrary, US has brought some balance. You can't defeat geography...
Hmm, the US government has never left any of their satellite countries, and they've only sought to expand their influence wherever possible since the end of the cold war, not least by means of their propaganda expertise — to all of which I would say Russia has (finally) brought some balance.

(Gee, your simplistic, unilateral All-American whitewash doesn't seem to stick when viewed vis-a-vis the historical facts. )
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  #567  
Old 15.06.2014, 23:48
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Hmm, the US government has never left any of their satellite countries, and they've only sought to expand their influence wherever possible since the end of the cold war, not least by means of their propaganda expertise — to all of which I would say Russia has (finally) brought some balance.

(Gee, your simplistic, unilateral All-American whitewash doesn't seem to stick when viewed vis-a-vis the historical facts. )
About "the US government has never left any of their satellite countries," which countries do you mean?
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  #568  
Old 16.06.2014, 02:23
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

I'm originally from Ukraine, and know the current situation there quite well.

I'm happy to answer questions as I see lots of misconceptions in this thread with regards to what is really going on there and what exactly Russia is doing htere. Feel free to ask.
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  #569  
Old 16.06.2014, 05:12
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Thirty years ago, I would have been on your side on that one because the eastern territories were still officially referred in schools to as "under polish administration".

Not anymore.

There is no border ambiguity in Germany's Germans' minds at all at present time. In a German mind, Poland is there for holidays, shopping and social dumping, not for staying there. There is a slightly higher pressure on houses in the Sudetenland due to proximity to the border, but frankly, I put my money on more Germans with a holiday house in Danmark than ex-refugees with one in the grand parents' home town in the eastern territories.
30 years ago it was easy to get whether a map was printed in Germany or in Switzerland, as CH printed maps already in the 1950ies and 60ies showed the areas east of the Oder as parts of Poland. We here always found it strange that the Germans refused reality until Willy Brandt changed things

Interesting is to see that Mrs Merkel, the first FRG chancellor of GDR origin, is clearly working on the realities of today.

To say however that the DDR/GDR was "conquered" by Germany is wrong, as the GDR never stopped to be German, THIS is the point I made. The GDR was never a republic of the USSR
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  #570  
Old 16.06.2014, 10:16
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I'm originally from Ukraine, and know the current situation there quite well.

I'm happy to answer questions as I see lots of misconceptions in this thread with regards to what is really going on there and what exactly Russia is doing htere. Feel free to ask.
Being from Ukraine does not give you any increased credibility for me with respect to the big boys' actions.

But I'd like to ask you, if you still have family back home, how they are coping with the situation and what's the impact on their every day life.
Thanks.
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  #571  
Old 16.06.2014, 12:13
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Being from Ukraine does not give you any increased credibility for me with respect to the big boys' actions.

But I'd like to ask you, if you still have family back home, how they are coping with the situation and what's the impact on their every day life.
Thanks.
And are you in the pro Ukraine side or the pro Russian?
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  #572  
Old 16.06.2014, 14:35
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Being from Ukraine does not give you any increased credibility for me with respect to the big boys' actions.
it is OK - I'm not here to argue or convince by any means. I'm merely here as many people want (and need) to know what is really happening in Ukraine, but it is hard to find reliable information due to propaganda/biases in the media, and without knowing the local languages. So I'm here to offer my information/opinion as I am obviously following the situation in Ukraine very closely and very worried about what is happening.

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But I'd like to ask you, if you still have family back home, how they are coping with the situation and what's the impact on their every day life.
Yes, some of my family is still there. Not in the region where the war is currently ongoing (Donetsk/Luhansk), but in one of the neighbouring ones. Things are quiet there right now, but people are worried as this can change very quickly - it only takes a couple of hundreds armed militants to be brought into the city by Russia, and it will turn into a war zone immediately.

Police (who is meant to be preventing this) in Eastern Ukraine is very anti-people, corrupted, and ~50% pro-Russian, especially in higher echelons. They expect to be "cleaned" by the new government at some point in the future, and so they are doing everything to sabotage their orders. So people don't feel protected at all by the police.

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And are you in the pro Ukraine side or the pro Russian?
I'm firmly pro-Ukrainian (even though Russian and not Ukrainian is my native language and I am originally from the Russian-speaking part of the country).
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  #573  
Old 16.06.2014, 16:07
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Europe faces gas shortage as Russia cuts Ukraine supply after talks fail.
Ukraine fails to broker an 11th-hour deal with Russia, causing Moscow to effectively halts all shipments from Monday morning.

Ukraine receives half its gas from Russia and transports 15 per cent of the fuel consumed in Europe.

Good time to pray for warm weather and stock up with winter clothing.
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  #574  
Old 16.06.2014, 16:12
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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No, Germany only re-united West Germany with Central Germany (GDR) but OST-DEUTSCHLAND = Schlesien/Silesia, Pommern /Pommerania and Ost-Preussen/EastPrussia are still Polish.

Britain and France of course for a long time maintained some rethorics without even considering to work accordingly.

And here the map of "real" Germany

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch...hes_Reich1.png
Re. map: Oh, c'mon Wolli... I expect so much more from you, really. You don't have to go with tanks and armies to control other countries, really. (anyway, I didn't mean it in a negative way, although there are also many negative sides of this situation )

P.S. Ask anyone back home and they would tell they prefer the E.U. deal over the ex- satellite-of- ex Soviet Union-currently Russian Federation one.
With all due respect for normal, regular Russian folks.

Last edited by greenmount; 16.06.2014 at 16:23.
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  #575  
Old 16.06.2014, 17:57
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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And are you in the pro Ukraine side or the pro Russian?
None of the two.
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  #576  
Old 16.06.2014, 19:04
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I'm firmly pro-Ukrainian.
Everybody is pro-Ukrainian and anti-corruption. The disagreement is on the how.
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Old 16.06.2014, 20:50
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Everybody is pro-Ukrainian and anti-corruption. The disagreement is on the how.
If that was the case, there would be no war in Ukraine.
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Old 16.06.2014, 21:23
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Everybody is pro-Ukrainian and anti-corruption. The disagreement is on the how.
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If that was the case, there would be no war in Ukraine.
As already posted "The disagreement is on the how"
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  #579  
Old 17.06.2014, 06:47
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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If that was the case, there would be no war in Ukraine.
Wrong, people are fighting about the how.
And do not underestimate other people's connexions with Ukraine.
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Old 17.06.2014, 12:13
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Wrong, people are fighting about the how.
And do not underestimate other people's connexions with Ukraine.
No. There is only one "pro-Ukrainian" way. The other one is called "pro-Russian" and not "how", as Ukraine under Russia is not a Ukraine by definition and will have its national identity suppressed and destroyed by Russia just like during the Soviet times. Get your facts right.

As for connections - Russians and Ukrainians were able to live together in Ukraine without major issues for very long time, until the very deliberate efforts to set the two against each other, break the country apart and start a civil war were started by Russia when Putin came to power.

P.S. I of course have no idea about your exact "connexions" with Ukraine, nor intend to underestimate or overestimate them

Last edited by Felix.; 17.06.2014 at 12:38.
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