Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #5961  
Old 26.04.2022, 11:47
jacek's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aargau
Posts: 8,876
Groaned at 125 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 6,613 Times in 3,661 Posts
jacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

The NATO indirectly supplies weapons to Ukraine and Russia sees it as an attempt at escalation to WWIII that might put them on nuclear alert. How did we get from an ineffective blitzkrieg to a total all out war there? No matter what move anyone makes right now it will be perceived as an aggression. OMG
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank jacek for this useful post:
  #5962  
Old 26.04.2022, 11:49
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 18,229
Groaned at 793 Times in 620 Posts
Thanked 28,210 Times in 11,391 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Russia wanted a Blitzkrieg and Ukraine gave them Total war.
Surely history tells us that a Blitzkrieg will never end well.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #5963  
Old 26.04.2022, 12:50
slammer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lummerland
Posts: 5,581
Groaned at 232 Times in 154 Posts
Thanked 10,352 Times in 4,037 Posts
slammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Surely history tells us that a Blitzkrieg will never end well.
Actually Blitzkrieg works very well. If your opponent is stratified and unable to react quickly enough to counter, like France was in 1940 when it took just over a month from invasion to cease fire.
Ukraine, on the other hand reacted very fast and the Russians had a problem. I think that the Russians simply did not expect such a manoeuvrable response.
Reply With Quote
  #5964  
Old 26.04.2022, 12:59
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 18,229
Groaned at 793 Times in 620 Posts
Thanked 28,210 Times in 11,391 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Russia wanted a Blitzkrieg and Ukraine gave them Total war.
Quote:
View Post
Actually Blitzkrieg works very well. If your opponent is stratified and unable to react quickly enough to counter, like France was in 1940 when it took just over a month from invasion to cease fire.
Ukraine, on the other hand reacted very fast and the Russians had a problem. I think that the Russians simply did not expect such a manoeuvrable response.
Germany got total war after the French invasion too.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #5965  
Old 26.04.2022, 13:12
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 5,299
Groaned at 103 Times in 94 Posts
Thanked 7,751 Times in 3,640 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Actually Blitzkrieg works very well. If your opponent is stratified and unable to react quickly enough to counter, like France was in 1940 when it took just over a month from invasion to cease fire.
Ukraine, on the other hand reacted very fast and the Russians had a problem. I think that the Russians simply did not expect such a manoeuvrable response.
Day 60 of invasion? If total digression is OK, well...Ukraine is like Vietnam.
Reply With Quote
  #5966  
Old 26.04.2022, 13:43
Aleydis's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,041
Groaned at 37 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 949 Times in 493 Posts
Aleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
The NATO indirectly supplies weapons to Ukraine and Russia sees it as an attempt at escalation to WWIII that might put them on nuclear alert. How did we get from an ineffective blitzkrieg to a total all out war there? No matter what move anyone makes right now it will be perceived as an aggression. OMG
Zugzwang
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugzwang
Reply With Quote
  #5967  
Old 26.04.2022, 13:50
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 3,987
Groaned at 382 Times in 272 Posts
Thanked 8,443 Times in 3,603 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
The NATO indirectly supplies weapons to Ukraine and Russia sees it as an attempt at escalation to WWIII that might put them on nuclear alert. How did we get from an ineffective blitzkrieg to a total all out war there? No matter what move anyone makes right now it will be perceived as an aggression. OMG
I don't think this is a valid comparison. Zugzwang is the dilemma of having to make a move when all options are bad.

In the situation in Ukraine, nobody needs to make a move or escalate. NATO has choices, and so far plays this very carefully. The US cancelled their Minuteman tests, i.e. decided not to move. The US made clear it would not put boots on the ground. They choose the steps that they consider have an acceptable risk profile.
Reply With Quote
  #5968  
Old 26.04.2022, 14:14
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 5,299
Groaned at 103 Times in 94 Posts
Thanked 7,751 Times in 3,640 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Easter vacations and all that, I missed these news about people isolated from Earthly concerns in the past now have to face Swiss bureaucracy. Anyone has access to the TdG Article? I cannot even find it.

Quote:
Because all his accounts have been blocked and he can no longer pay his telephone and electricity bills, a Russian oligarch has applied for social assistance in Switzerland. But is this kind of assistance given to a billionaire?

No, it was the answer from social service. As there are immovable (real estate) and movable assets(bank accounts), no social assistance is paid according to the guidelines.

So how can the billionaire, who no longer has access to his bank accounts, pay his bills? In the Tribune de Genčve, a sanctioned oligarch of Swiss nationality recently complained that he would soon no longer be able to pay for his purchases at Migros because of the sanctions.

According to the State Secretariat for Economic Affairs (Seco), payments from blocked accounts, transfers of blocked assets as well as the release of blocked economic resources may be authorized in exceptional cases. Among other things to avoid hardship.

The Seco has already received such requests for exceptional cases, but cannot comment further. It just says, "Each case is considered individually." According to Seco, the amount granted depends on the application. There's a difference between someone who needs to fix their roof and someone who needs to buy pasta. The applicant must submit documents showing what exactly they need.
https://www.watson.ch/fr/suisse/best...laries-suisses
Reply With Quote
  #5969  
Old 26.04.2022, 15:14
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 12,278
Groaned at 689 Times in 579 Posts
Thanked 23,618 Times in 12,381 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

"Lavrov was asked on Russian state television on Monday about the prospects of world war three, and his response marks a significant escalation in rhetoric, reports Reuters.

"The danger is serious, real. And we must not underestimate it," Lavrov said. "NATO, in essence, is engaged in a war with Russia through a proxy and is arming that proxy.
War means war."

So it is officially a war now? No longer a special operation?

Russia has cried wolf too often with threats of nuclear and WWIII.

Last edited by marton; 26.04.2022 at 15:25.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #5970  
Old 26.04.2022, 15:18
slammer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lummerland
Posts: 5,581
Groaned at 232 Times in 154 Posts
Thanked 10,352 Times in 4,037 Posts
slammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Germany got total war after the French invasion too.
Well they wanted it...
If you have ever listened to Göbbels Sportpalast speech where he askes the Germans if they want total war then you realize, that it is very easy to get people to do whatever you want. The mechanics of incendiary speech like the Sportpalast Rede are the same everywhere and work everytime. Trump initiating the sixth of January is one example showing the flip side of free speech. The generic Russians not understanding why Ukraine is being so reluctant to embrace Russian liberation another.
It´s so easy it´s scary.
Reply With Quote
  #5971  
Old 26.04.2022, 15:31
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 5,299
Groaned at 103 Times in 94 Posts
Thanked 7,751 Times in 3,640 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
"Lavrov was asked on Russian state television on Monday about the prospects of world war three, and his response marks a significant escalation in rhetoric, reports Reuters.

"The danger is serious, real. And we must not underestimate it," Lavrov said. "NATO, in essence, is engaged in a war with Russia through a proxy and is arming that proxy.
War means war."

So it is officially a war now? No longer a special operation?

Russia has cried wolf too often with threats of nuclear and WWIII.
Well, list of proxy wars during the Cold War:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...War_proxy_wars

The most famous ones are:

1) Indochina (1946-1954) when Vietnam was called Indochina.
2) Korea (1950-1953), the one that created North and South Korea.
3) Vietnam (1954-1975), the one from the movies.
4) Suez channel crisis (1956)
5) Afghanistan (1979-1989), the one that presumably contributed to sink the USSR.
6) All other less famous dictators in Latin America and Africa supported by either USA or USSR.

However, this is not a Cold War 2022, this proxy War means HOT War.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #5972  
Old 26.04.2022, 15:57
slammer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lummerland
Posts: 5,581
Groaned at 232 Times in 154 Posts
Thanked 10,352 Times in 4,037 Posts
slammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Well, list of proxy wars during the Cold War:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...War_proxy_wars

The most famous ones are:

1) Indochina (1946-1954) when Vietnam was called Indochina.
2) Korea (1950-1953), the one that created North and South Korea.
3) Vietnam (1954-1975), the one from the movies.
4) Suez channel crisis (1956)
5) Afghanistan (1979-1989), the one that presumably contributed to sink the USSR.
6) All other less famous dictators in Latin America and Africa supported by either USA or USSR.

However, this is not a Cold War 2022, this proxy War means HOT War.
Uff! the US is mentioned in 78 of the 105 listed.
Reply With Quote
  #5973  
Old 26.04.2022, 16:12
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 3,987
Groaned at 382 Times in 272 Posts
Thanked 8,443 Times in 3,603 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

This proxy war talk is horseshit and just serves the Russia narrative that the US is the ultimately responsible for this war. This is a Russian land grab in blatant violation of all international norms, nothing else. The fact that the US are leading the support to Ukraine does not change this.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank komsomolez for this useful post:
  #5974  
Old 26.04.2022, 16:20
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Geneva
Posts: 718
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 850 Times in 360 Posts
MajorGrubert has a reputation beyond reputeMajorGrubert has a reputation beyond reputeMajorGrubert has a reputation beyond reputeMajorGrubert has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
A proxy war is an armed conflict between two states or non-state actors which act on the instigation or on behalf of other parties that are not directly involved in the hostilities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war
Reply With Quote
  #5975  
Old 26.04.2022, 17:08
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kt.ZH
Posts: 11,934
Groaned at 471 Times in 387 Posts
Thanked 18,682 Times in 9,452 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
I don‘t understand what you are trying to say
Understand this, all this talk about Ukrainian nazis, extremists or whatever you want to call them is a red herring considering Russia is killing Ukrainians basically because they're Ukrainians. Russia behaves like a fascist state and is accusing others? I understand they needed a pretext to invade UA and grab land but it is simply ridiculous and disingenuous to repeat their nonsense with the Ukrainian extremists and I already explained why.
Reply With Quote
  #5976  
Old 26.04.2022, 17:16
Aleydis's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,041
Groaned at 37 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 949 Times in 493 Posts
Aleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
This proxy war talk is horseshit and just serves the Russia narrative that the US is the ultimately responsible for this war. This is a Russian land grab in blatant violation of all international norms, nothing else. The fact that the US are leading the support to Ukraine does not change this.
Oh no-no-no, this is a proxy war and the fact that Lavrov voices this now only changes nothing. Moreover, this is a case of catastrophically failed diplomacy, including second track. This is why I said Zugzwang - at best this will end up as a frozen conflict. Unfortunately.

From: Foreign Policy of Russia and the United States:
Geopolitics in the 21st Century (2019)

How much scope is there for cooperation on issues such as nuclear safety, strategic arms control, and counter-terrorism? In a press conference that followed the meeting of the NATO-Russia Council on 25 January 2019, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg stated that no progress was made with respect to the Ukrainian crisis or the issues surrounding the INF Treaty.

At the same time, he emphasized the importance of dialogue as “the only way to address these issues” (2019). The question remains whether the relations between the United States and the Russian Federation will continue to evolve in an action-reaction cycle of economic and political retaliation. Can this situation result in military retaliation? Will present-day global multilateral institutions prevent this from happening? If not, will the abandonment of commitment to this framework lead to creation of an entirely new set of rules with chaos in the interim period? Policy choices, being the product of bargaining between political actors, reflect the balance of power between such. Thus, the biggest problem in today’s international relations is that there is no such balance due to the fact that actor constellations are rapidly changing and the relations between the actors become more complex and fluid in the face of increasing uncertainty.
__________________
If you are going through hell, just keep going.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Aleydis for this useful post:
  #5977  
Old 26.04.2022, 17:21
Aleydis's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,041
Groaned at 37 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 949 Times in 493 Posts
Aleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond reputeAleydis has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Understand this, all this talk about Ukrainian nazis, extremists or whatever you want to call them is a red herring considering Russia is killing Ukrainians basically because they're Ukrainians. Russia behaves like a fascist state and is accusing others? I understand they needed a pretext to invade UA and grab land but it is simply ridiculous and disingenuous to repeat their nonsense with the Ukrainian extremists and I already explained why.
Yep, first facebook is a terrorist organization and now Ukraine as a country.

A new low from RTR Planeta today - some so-called political analyst referred to Lloyd Austin as a 'darkie'.
Reply With Quote
  #5978  
Old 26.04.2022, 17:26
slammer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lummerland
Posts: 5,581
Groaned at 232 Times in 154 Posts
Thanked 10,352 Times in 4,037 Posts
slammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Understand this, all this talk about Ukrainian nazis, extremists or whatever you want to call them is a red herring considering Russia is killing Ukrainians basically because they're Ukrainians. Russia behaves like a fascist state and is accusing others? I understand they needed a pretext to invade UA and grab land but it is simply ridiculous and disingenuous to repeat their nonsense with the Ukrainian extremists and I already explained why.
That is the very insidious method that Russia is using. Thing is that Russia is not lying, but they are spinning and twisting truths, half truths and manipulating out of all proportion to justify attacking Ukraine. It’s a tried and tested method and works every time.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank slammer for this useful post:
  #5979  
Old 26.04.2022, 17:26
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: transcended.
Posts: 180
Groaned at 231 Times in 121 Posts
Thanked 857 Times in 366 Posts
vushka is considered unworthyvushka is considered unworthyvushka is considered unworthy
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Understand this, all this talk about Ukrainian nazis, extremists or whatever you want to call them is a red herring considering Russia is killing Ukrainians basically because they're Ukrainians. Russia behaves like a fascist state and is accusing others? I understand they needed a pretext to invade UA and grab land but it is simply ridiculous and disingenuous to repeat their nonsense with the Ukrainian extremists and I already explained why.
so putin labelled his opponents nazis to discredit them and legitimise violence against them. wonder where he got that brilliant idea from?
Reply With Quote
  #5980  
Old 26.04.2022, 17:33
NotAllThere's Avatar
Modulo 2
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 16,001
Groaned at 340 Times in 293 Posts
Thanked 25,209 Times in 10,257 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
so putin labelled his opponents nazis to discredit them and legitimise violence against them. wonder where he got that brilliant idea from?
I think the tactic is thousands of years old.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
crimea, russia, ukraine




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jewish Refugees in Switzerland during World War II zanskar International affairs/politics 48 16.06.2010 16:58
Book about Switzerland in the second world war [recommendation?] telandy Other/general 14 18.06.2007 21:15


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 19:11.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0