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-   -   World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? (https://www.englishforum.ch/international-affairs-politics/202409-world-war-3-just-local-spat-ukraine.html)

Treverus 04.03.2014 09:50

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 2102960)
....as opposed to Jobbik in Hungary, Front National in France....or maybe UKIP in the UK?:D

Do you foresee the UKIP to run the government there any time soon? I don't thanks to the not so democratic election system of the UK which makes it impossible for smaller parties to be represented anywhere near their support in the population in parliament. But let's get back to the enemies of freedom(tm) ...

greenmount 04.03.2014 09:56

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2102969)
Do you foresee the UKIP to run the government there any time soon?...

Who knows...public rhetorics - wise there is not much difference between them and the "others". :msnblush:
But right, back to the World War 3.

idefix 04.03.2014 10:12

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2102664)
About "I can't blame the Russians for wanting to protect Crimea and its majority of Russian citizen. "

Protect from what exactly?
Ukraine has been independent (including Crimea) for nearly a quarter century.

From these guys:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine...-riots/5371725

It has been independent but it has been very close to Kremlin rather than Kiev.

It is very obvious that a large part of the Ukranian people and all of the Russian ethnicity wants nothing to do with the west, NATO and EU, and they prefer to keep closer ties with Kremlin.

The Russian military has not fired a single bullet and the locals are welcoming them with arm wide open. So what's the fuss about?

This is how Russia liberates a country:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...51560112_n.jpg

And this is how the West and NATO liberates a country:

http://deinweckruf.files.wordpress.c...acy-bomber.jpg

Again, what's the fuss about?

PlantHead 04.03.2014 11:23

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 2102982)

The article comes from a website with it's own agenda to push and is written by a "professor" who is included in the list of Canada's nuttiest professors.
http://www.westernstandard.ca/websit...d=1998&start=1

Propaganda is propaganda, for every staged photo of locals hugging soldiers there is another of Russians perpetrating violence and attacking Ukrainians.
Have a photo of Putler

http://i.imgur.com/qtb4vSk.jpg

idefix 04.03.2014 11:40

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PlantHead (Post 2103029)
The article comes from a website with it's own agenda to push and is written by a "professor" who is included in the list of Canada's nuttiest professors.
http://www.westernstandard.ca/websit...d=1998&start=1

Propaganda is propaganda, for every staged photo of locals hugging soldiers there is another of Russians perpetrating violence and attacking Ukrainians.
Have a photo of Putler

Did you actually see the "protests"? It was nothing but well organized CIA attempt to bring down a legitimate democratic government. Sure, Yanu was no saint, but imagine the "people" doing this on Capitol Hill?



The UK, Germany, Turkey already said to the US they will not engage in any economic or whatever sanctions against Russia... I think this should tell you something?

The US tried to take over what was a democratic government which people choose to be closer to Russia, nothing wrong with that. All hell broke loose after US funding and helping the "protesters" and brought UA on the brink of civil war. This is all happening in Russia's backyard, so what do you think Putin will do when he is provoked?

PlantHead 04.03.2014 11:43

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 2103036)
Did you actually see the "protests"? It was nothing but well organized CIA attempt to bring down a legitimate democratic government. Sure, Yanu was no saint, but imagine the "people" doing this on Capitol Hill?



The UK, Germany, Turkey already said to the US they will not engage in any economic or whatever sanctions against Russia... I think this should tell you something?

The US tried to take over what was a democratic government which people choose to be closer to Russia, nothing wrong with that. All hell broke loose after US funding and helping the "protesters" and brought UA on the brink of civil war. This is all happening in Russia's backyard, so what do you think Putin will do when he is provoked?

Your source for these "facts" is Russia today?
I think I have spotted a flaw in your argument.

It wasn't a CIA plot, you are insane.

lost_inbroad 04.03.2014 11:55

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crazygringo (Post 2102827)
I can't speak for the UK, but the US does not need Russia for nat gas. Europe needs Russia (and Ukraine, for that matter, for the pipelines), but not the US.

My read on this is precisely because of Europe's economic position that Germany, the UK and France are unlikely to bat with the US on sanctions. Putin figures the international community won't act militarily; Europe may not even act on the economic front and Ukraine would lose outright in a force-on-force conflict. The end game is in Putin's favor...as I don't see a prolonged military conflict to take place, this is basically Georgia 2008 and a further step for the Soviet Union 2.0.

Swiss Cheddar 04.03.2014 12:02

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...hicken-008.jpg


I am picking up my order of chicken kiev from the butcher this afternoon.


Coincidence or part of Putin's plan?




cheers
SC

NotAllThere 04.03.2014 12:03

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 2102982)
...
The Russian military has not fired a single bullet...

They have now.

From the Times:

0832: The first shots have been fired in Crimea, as Russian troops occupying the Belbek airbase in Crimea were approached by 300 reportedly unarmed Ukrainian troops asking for the base to be returned to their control.
A dozen Russian soldiers warned the Ukrainians not to get any closer, and threatened to fire into the group if they refused to stop. They fired warning shots into the air - believed to be the first guns discharged since Russian troops began occupying the Crimean peninsula at the weekend.

PlantHead 04.03.2014 12:03

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lost_inbroad (Post 2103053)
My read on this, is that precisely because of Europe's economic position that Germany, the UK and France are unlikely to bat with the US on sanctions. Putin figures the international community won't act militarily; Europe may not even act on the economic front and Ukraine would lose outright in a force-on-force conflict. The end game is in Putin's favor...as I don't see a prolonged military conflict to take place, this is basically Georgia 2008 and a further step for the Soviet Union 2.0.

I am not sure this is true.

Putin lost the Ukraine to the EU. That is a significant thing and highlights Russia's weakness.
In sending troops into the Crimea he is trying to reassert some measure of strength - "Forget about losing Ukraine, look I have taken back the Crimea, RUSSIA STRONG!"
It is a mask to hide the fact that a country Russia considers to be Russian, actually wasn't, isn't and probably will never be. The invasion is the last throw of a weak and desperate hand to save something from a terrible situation.

In effect Putin has already lost.
He may get the Crimea but that is peanuts to losing all of the Ukraine.

idefix 04.03.2014 12:05

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PlantHead (Post 2103040)
Your source for these "facts" is Russia today?
I think I have spotted a flaw in your argument.

It wasn't a CIA plot, you are insane.

Forget RT, did you SEE the video? Or you think it was staged by RT?!

Honestly, just see the video. And tell me in which country with democratic government "the people" will get organized and bulldozer their own police and not get shot? Can you imagine rednecks bulldozing the Capitol Hill, and what the US military will do in that case?!

The same pamphlet given to "protesters" in the Arab world, Turkey appeared in Kiev as well (translated in Russian)

http://www.voltairenet.org/local/cac...4121-dbb45.jpg

Hmmm, who would have such a heavy logistics and support for such actions....hmmmmm?

Wake up and see around you, this is nothing but a US coup d'etat, it backed fired and now the Russians will take the territories where the Russian influence is stronger. The UA opposition turned out to be the stupidest of all, all the pro western people who got the job done with the US support are now out of the new government as the radicals come and take in, UA has nobody but themselves to blame

PlantHead 04.03.2014 12:22

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 2103067)
Words

I see a 3 minute video of a bulldozer shoving riot police out of the way (not running them over) and I see no shooting. Was there shooting afterwards?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...testers-police

Yes there was.

And are you seriously trying to say that because protesters in Turkey and Ukraine both printed out the same page from the internet, that it is a big conspiracy by the CIA?
Why the CIA anyway?

idefix 04.03.2014 12:39

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PlantHead (Post 2103080)
I see a 3 minute video of a bulldozer shoving riot police out of the way (not running them over) and I see no shooting. Was there shooting afterwards?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...testers-police

Yes there was.

And are you seriously trying to say that because protesters in Turkey and Ukraine both printed out the same page from the internet, that it is a big conspiracy by the CIA?
Why the CIA anyway?

They had very organized operation which was copy/paste from everywhere else at the moment where the US wanted to infiltrate its influence. The same tactic backfired now as UA is way more complicated internally and Russia is at the doorstep so Putin will def not let Americans play their game here.

Putin doesn't care about Kiev, all the cares is Crimea. He will turn this into a great great win for him and Russia as he will become the new hero who brought back Crimea to its Russian people. Why do you think nobody dares to say anything and he did it so openly?

The UA opposition stirred shit and got it in the end. What many don't realize is that the artificial territory modern UA occupies, it is VERY fragile now and I don't see it stay as a whole. In order to escape a Balkan scenario I honestly think the best solution would be the Russians simply to take over control of the country instead of the Yanks as everywhere they have been in the past 50 years there has been a GREAT bloodshed.

The UA people are way closer in mentality and culture to the RU and not to the west, any NATO western influence there will f up the country totally as it has already

http://i.imgur.com/XxNqtS4.jpg

marton 04.03.2014 12:43

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lost_inbroad (Post 2103053)
My read on this is precisely because of Europe's economic position that Germany, the UK and France are unlikely to bat with the US on sanctions. Putin figures the international community won't act militarily; Europe may not even act on the economic front and Ukraine would lose outright in a force-on-force conflict. The end game is in Putin's favor...as I don't see a prolonged military conflict to take place, this is basically Georgia 2008 and a further step for the Soviet Union 2.0.

About "Ukraine would lose outright in a force-on-force conflict."

Long term probably.
The Russian army is much larger but most of them seem to be up on the border with Finland playing war games.

The Ukraine are on their home ground with tanks whereas the Russians (from newspaper photos) seem to be bringing in only light armour?
Russia has a lot of war planes which probably negates the Ukraine tanks; depends on what Ukraine has for anti aircraft capability.

Russia also will have the problem of any invading force of supplying their troops; to do it properly they would need to invade Ukraine north of Crimea and establish a secure land route.

marton 04.03.2014 12:54

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 2103094)
They had very organized operation which was copy/paste from everywhere else at the moment where the US wanted to infiltrate its influence. The same tactic backfired now as UA is way more complicated internally and Russia is at the doorstep so Putin will def not let Americans play their game here.

Putin doesn't care about Kiev, all the cares is Crimea. He will turn this into a great great win for him and Russia as he will become the new hero who brought back Crimea to its Russian people. Why do you think nobody dares to say anything and he did it so openly?

The UA opposition stirred shit and got it in the end. What many don't realize is that the artificial territory modern UA occupies, it is VERY fragile now and I don't see it stay as a whole. In order to escape a Balkan scenario I honestly think the best solution would be the Russians simply to take over control of the country instead of the Yanks as everywhere they have been in the past 50 years there has been a GREAT bloodshed.

The UA people are way closer in mentality and culture to the RU and not to the west, any NATO western influence there will f up the country totally as it has already

About "the Russians simply to take over control of the country instead of the Yanks as everywhere they have been in the past 50 years there has been a GREAT bloodshed."

Russia's record at taking over other countries is also full of blood and lack of success; for example, remember Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Georgia, Dagestan and Chechen?

esto 04.03.2014 13:03

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 2102639)
I can't blame the Russians for wanting to protect Crimea and its majority of Russian citizen.

My family are "ethnic Russians" (native Russian speakers) living in Southern Ukraine, and I can tell you that they are horrified at the prospect of the Russian army marching in. They find the ruse of Russia "protecting" them mind boggling, as nobody is threatening them inside Ukraine. The people doing the "pro-Russia" rallys are bussed in from Russia and supported by a handful of local drunks and thugs. The vast majority of people there feel that Ukraine can solve their own problems. Sure, they have always been at odds with the Western part of Ukraine, but when faced with a foreign army occupation, they suddenly feel closer than ever to the Ukrainians in the West. Despite being 100% ethnic Russian, and having been a Soviet officer, he is ready to take up arms and die fighting for Ukraine. It's all very sad :(

Normally, military should only be used as a last resort, and after consultation with others in the international community. A sudden unilateral, unannounced presence of military troops in another country can not be described as anything other than an invasion.

People in Crimea may be conditioned to seeing Russian troops and don't fear it, but people in "mainland" Ukraine are a different story entirely. If Russian troops advance further, it can only lead to bloodshed, especially in Western Ukraine. I'm really afraid Putin has become overly emotional at losing the Russian sphere of influence in Ukraine and has become unstable in his thinking. Merkel's comments yesterday that he seems to "be in his own world" and "lost touch with reality" seem to back this up as well.

...and why has the US and NATO suddenly lost their spine? Why are they not standing up to unprovoked aggression? Have we forgotten how Hitler started to grab countries in 1938? (..and not long after hosting the Olympics in 1936)

Guest 04.03.2014 13:15

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicChick (Post 2102768)
Good point. Munich all over again.

En plus, which is more relevant, large part of Ukraine used to be Czechoslovakian and was stolen and annexed to USSR.

I hope things work out for the local people.

You meant Poland, right?

Guest 04.03.2014 13:20

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 2102982)
From these guys:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine...-riots/5371725

It has been independent but it has been very close to Kremlin rather than Kiev.

It is very obvious that a large part of the Ukranian people and all of the Russian ethnicity wants nothing to do with the west, NATO and EU, and they prefer to keep closer ties with Kremlin.

The Russian military has not fired a single bullet and the locals are welcoming them with arm wide open. So what's the fuss about?

This is how Russia liberates a country:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...51560112_n.jpg

And this is how the West and NATO liberates a country:

http://deinweckruf.files.wordpress.c...acy-bomber.jpg

Again, what's the fuss about?

Stop with the propaganda idefix, really...

idefix 04.03.2014 13:23

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
If the news aren't Pro-Western it must be propaganda! :msnsick:

I feel sorry for you people, honestly.

Guest 04.03.2014 13:24

Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 2103130)
If the news aren't Pro-Western it must be propaganda! :msnsick:

I feel sorry for you people, honestly.

Here's something from your favourite source:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZolXrjGIBJs


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