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  #601  
Old 18.06.2014, 16:13
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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You find the US giving protestors biscuits more convincing than the Russians giving their supporters tanks and anti-aircraft missiles?
The US government officials weren't just "giving biscuits" — they were on site in Kiev, unequivocally encouraging and supporting the people who brought about the coup.

Where's the unequivocal evidance of Russia "giving tanks and anti-aircraft missiles" to anybody? Mere possession doesn't indicate the means of acquisition.

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And how you perceive the IMF giving the Ukraine a loan as showing the US supporting the coup is beyond all logic...
We've been down this road before. (I'm not kidding about the short term memory loss.)

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...I do not see any "unequivocal evidence" in your post.
Then your comprehension skills seem as fragile as your short term memory.
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  #602  
Old 18.06.2014, 17:26
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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The US government officials weren't just "giving biscuits" — they were on site in Kiev, unequivocally encouraging and supporting the people who brought about the coup.

Where's the unequivocal evidance of Russia "giving tanks and anti-aircraft missiles" to anybody? Mere possession doesn't indicate the means of acquisition.



We've been down this road before. (I'm not kidding about the short term memory loss.)



Then your comprehension skills seem as fragile as your short term memory.
Simply because you happen to believe things does not constitute unequivocal evidence.

About "Where's the unequivocal evidence of Russia "giving tanks and anti-aircraft missiles" to anybody? Mere possession doesn't indicate the means of acquisition."

True, I expect they got them from the Tooth Fairy.

Everybody knows Russia leaves tanks and advanced weapons lying around for anyone to use
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  #603  
Old 18.06.2014, 18:41
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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You find the US giving protestors biscuits more convincing than the Russians giving their supporters tanks and anti-aircraft missiles?.
Wait a minute. Nobody said that. Not even Putin who choses his words with caution. There is no Russian army in Ukraine. True. There are arms in Ukraine speaking with a Russian accent. True. There are militias in Ukraine that were not there last year. True. There are armed non military groups sent by the Kiev government to conduct the acts of retaliation in the east. True. There are fatal casualties in civil population. True. There are only civilians fighting. Legally true. It's endless…
It does not mean that:
- Kiev's new government is democratic by any standards as democracy does not arm civil militias but send normal police,
- Russia is not involved in the resistance against what Ukrainian citizens fight as illegal coup d'état and oppression.

So much is true. No wonder people just pick and choose what suits them. One fact though: peaceful demonstration it wasn't, and peaceful government it isn't. No wonder the reactions are heavy.

Real Ukrainian people (not the cyberworld-only ones), voted massively for the SAME candidate. That's a clue on what the actual citizens think…
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Old 18.06.2014, 19:39
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Simply because you happen to believe things does not constitute unequivocal evidence...
Precisely the same goes for you and your pro-US / anti-Russia colleagues.

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...True, I expect they got them from the Tooth Fairy.

Everybody knows Russia leaves tanks and advanced weapons lying around for anyone to use
Okay, Mr. Sarcasm, how about we do a little thinking exercise?

Step One: Exactly how many 'Russian' tanks are in Ukraine? How many 'Russian' anti-aircraft missiles? Where are the facts documented? Who exactly has seen them / confirmed their presence? And how?
In the absence of hard data, no compelling analysis is possible in this matter, no matter how many times you or your colleagues parrot your claims.

Step Two: How could such 'Russian' weapons end up in Ukraine without their having been explicitly and officially given by the Russian government?
  • Were there any Russian-made tanks or anti-aircraft missiles in Ukraine before the coup? If no, how do we know (and from where did Ukraine get its tanks and anti-aircraft missiles prior to the coup)? If yes, how many, and are they all accounted for?

  • Could any Russian tanks and/or anti-aircraft missiles have been 'organized' by pro-Russia Ukrainians and/or pro-Ukrainian Russians without the consent of the Russian government? If yes (or no), how can we know?

  • Even admitting the mere possibility that the Russian government 'looked the other way' while an unknown quantity of 'Russian' tanks and anti-aircraft missiles crossed the border into Ukraine, how exactly would we know (apart from endless soundbite-parroting) that the Russian government actually did this?
Not knowing "a" doesn't logically mean "b" must be true. Assertions are not facts. Yet assertions (not documented facts) are mainly what the pro-US/anti-RU camp relies on for their propaganda campaign. On the other hand, US interventionist activities meant to pull Ukraine into a US-centric orbit have been anything but hidden or speculative — from high-level state department officials in Kiev encouraging the coup, to NATO warnings and IMF/WB carrot-and-stick enticements. These are not mere assertions, they're facts about the US/NATO agenda that have been reported in some detail by the media — as opposed to mere anti-Russian soundbites (accusations) being repeated ad nauseam by the western media (and certain EF members).

Nobody has heretofore demonstrated unequivocally that Russia is malevolently sticking its nose into the crisis in Ukraine, yet there has been incontrovertible evidence supplied by the media and US officials themselves to the effect that the US/NATO/Europe agenda means to pull Ukraine into NATO/Europe, further isolating Russia. (Why is this agenda so important or even superior to any other agenda?)

Step Three: How exactly do we arrive at the conclusion that Russia's speculated but scarcely documented role in the situation is both active and evil, while deliberately ignoring the well-documented and undeniably active role of the US/NATO as benevolent and ultimately beneficial to Ukraine?
Short answer: we don't — but that obviously won't stop you and your pro-Us/anti-RU crowd from yapping and squealing accusations against Russia while ignoring the undeniable actions of the US government, its allies, and its dollar-based institutional tools of economic manipulation.

I've never been a big fan of Russia in general or Putin in particular, but I'm well aware (though not exhaustively) of the US government's agenda and foreign policies, which are anything but benevolent and altruistic. To frame the crisis in Ukraine as a simplistic conflict between Russian domination and independence is immeasurably naive and short-sighted.
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  #605  
Old 18.06.2014, 20:25
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Precisely the same goes for you and your pro-US / anti-Russia colleagues.



Okay, Mr. Sarcasm, how about we do a little thinking exercise?

Step One: Exactly how many 'Russian' tanks are in Ukraine? How many 'Russian' anti-aircraft missiles? Where are the facts documented? Who exactly has seen them / confirmed their presence? And how?
In the absence of hard data, no compelling analysis is possible in this matter, no matter how many times you or your colleagues parrot your claims.

Step Two: How could such 'Russian' weapons end up in Ukraine without their having been explicitly and officially given by the Russian government?
  • Were there any Russian-made tanks or anti-aircraft missiles in Ukraine before the coup? If no, how do we know (and from where did Ukraine get its tanks and anti-aircraft missiles prior to the coup)? If yes, how many, and are they all accounted for?

  • Could any Russian tanks and/or anti-aircraft missiles have been 'organized' by pro-Russia Ukrainians and/or pro-Ukrainian Russians without the consent of the Russian government? If yes (or no), how can we know?

  • Even admitting the mere possibility that the Russian government 'looked the other way' while an unknown quantity of 'Russian' tanks and anti-aircraft missiles crossed the border into Ukraine, how exactly would we know (apart from endless soundbite-parroting) that the Russian government actually did this?
Not knowing "a" doesn't logically mean "b" must be true. Assertions are not facts. Yet assertions (not documented facts) are mainly what the pro-US/anti-RU camp relies on for their propaganda campaign. On the other hand, US interventionist activities meant to pull Ukraine into a US-centric orbit have been anything but hidden or speculative — from high-level state department officials in Kiev encouraging the coup, to NATO warnings and IMF/WB carrot-and-stick enticements. These are not mere assertions, they're facts about the US/NATO agenda that have been reported in some detail by the media — as opposed to mere anti-Russian soundbites (accusations) being repeated ad nauseam by the western media (and certain EF members).

Nobody has heretofore demonstrated unequivocally that Russia is malevolently sticking its nose into the crisis in Ukraine, yet there has been incontrovertible evidence supplied by the media and US officials themselves to the effect that the US/NATO/Europe agenda means to pull Ukraine into NATO/Europe, further isolating Russia. (Why is this agenda so important or even superior to any other agenda?)

Step Three: How exactly do we arrive at the conclusion that Russia's speculated but scarcely documented role in the situation is both active and evil, while deliberately ignoring the well-documented and undeniably active role of the US/NATO as benevolent and ultimately beneficial to Ukraine?
Short answer: we don't — but that obviously won't stop you and your pro-Us/anti-RU crowd from yapping and squealing accusations against Russia while ignoring the undeniable actions of the US government, its allies, and its dollar-based institutional tools of economic manipulation.

I've never been a big fan of Russia in general or Putin in particular, but I'm well aware (though not exhaustively) of the US government's agenda and foreign policies, which are anything but benevolent and altruistic. To frame the crisis in Ukraine as a simplistic conflict between Russian domination and independence is immeasurably naive and short-sighted.
About "Nobody has heretofore demonstrated unequivocally that Russia is malevolently sticking its nose into the crisis in Ukraine"

So are you writing that
  • Russia did not take over the Crimea?
  • And now they are there they are not taking over Ukrainian businesses without compensation?

Or maybe it was the US/NATO who took over the Crimea by cleverly disguising themselves as Russian?

Considering all your claims about the US/NATO/Europe agenda; strange that Russia is the only external nation to benefit from this crisis - according to you without even sticking their noses in
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  #606  
Old 18.06.2014, 20:33
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Wait a minute. Nobody said that. Not even Putin who choses his words with caution. There is no Russian army in Ukraine. True. There are arms in Ukraine speaking with a Russian accent. True. There are militias in Ukraine that were not there last year. True. There are armed non military groups sent by the Kiev government to conduct the acts of retaliation in the east. True. There are fatal casualties in civil population. True. There are only civilians fighting. Legally true. It's endless…
It does not mean that:
- Kiev's new government is democratic by any standards as democracy does not arm civil militias but send normal police,
- Russia is not involved in the resistance against what Ukrainian citizens fight as illegal coup d'état and oppression.

So much is true. No wonder people just pick and choose what suits them. One fact though: peaceful demonstration it wasn't, and peaceful government it isn't. No wonder the reactions are heavy.

Real Ukrainian people (not the cyberworld-only ones), voted massively for the SAME candidate. That's a clue on what the actual citizens think…
About "democracy does not arm civil militias but send normal police" - When the normal police do not do their job then what should a Government do, eventually they have sent the army - is that better or worse??

About "Real Ukrainian people (not the cyberworld-only ones), voted massively for the SAME candidate. That's a clue on what the actual citizens think…"

Just to be clear - you are talking about the vote for Petro Poroshenko?
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  #607  
Old 18.06.2014, 22:35
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

The Eastern part, no matter what, wasn't up in arms to secede. Whatever their stance, they didn't do it. There was a coup d'etat which changed one gov't to another. Well, the underlying power hasn't of course changed, that's clear, isn't it? Otherwise there would be a power struggle within. Now Russia becomes unhappy with the developments and sends its own army to the border, and funnels arms, military and former military to orchestrate but also execute in the ground a "secession". No idea how much popular support it has.
It is not in response for Western Ukraine actions. It is not to protect anyone. It is to realize Russia's objectives.
Any thinking that Russia is about the Russians living there isn't probably founded. They basically don't care in Weatern world meaning of this world. Remember how they treated their own people in the siege of a Moscow's theatre and Bieslan's school (or sinking of Kursk submarine).

NATO is mentioned here often but in Eastern Europe it is toothless with Germany being "neutral". Ukraine wouldn't join anyway, same with EU. But Russia's power-hungry elites want the landmass, population and access up to Moldova. Not just to keep "NATO" out, but also to keep their options open.
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  #608  
Old 18.06.2014, 22:38
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

I'm not sure why Texaner's arguments are discussed at all. He should sign up at dobrovolec.ru ; or
I can buy him a one-way ticket to Krimea for a first-hand experience.
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  #609  
Old 18.06.2014, 22:58
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I'm not sure why Texaner's arguments are discussed at all. He should sign up at dobrovolec.ru ; or
I can buy him a one-way ticket to Krimea for a first-hand experience.
This forum is unacceptable, allowing people to express their opinion....
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  #610  
Old 19.06.2014, 00:18
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

There are facts reported by many independent sources. There is no such an information blackout like in 2nd US-Iraq war.
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Old 19.06.2014, 04:34
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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This forum is unacceptable, allowing people to express their opinion....
Relax, nobody is proposing to ban him.. We are merely suggesting to send him to Crimea for a short holiday to get a taste of the Russian "democracy" there - I'm happy to contribute to that trip, and even draw a travel plan for him as I know the Crimea inside out
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Old 19.06.2014, 06:25
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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...strange that Russia is the only external nation to benefit from this crisis - according to you without even sticking their noses in
By what logic do you conclude that "Russia is the only external nation to benefit from this crisis"?

The US government has plenty to benefit from the situation. Although losing Crimea wasn't part of their plan, absorbing Ukraine into NATO was, and it is succeeding. The net effect will further isolate Russia from yet another neighbor, and lock Ukraine into a permanent debt arrangement with US/European governments and their central banks.
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Old 19.06.2014, 06:53
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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When the normal police do not do their job then what should a Government do, eventually they have sent the army - is that better or worse?
Kiev sent no army and no police, and still, heavy weapons were used against civilians called terrorists in governmental rhetorics. Democracy it is not.
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Old 19.06.2014, 07:31
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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...Any thinking that Russia is about the Russians living there isn't probably founded. They basically don't care in Weatern world meaning of this world. Remember how they treated their own people in the siege of a Moscow's theatre and Bieslan's school (or sinking of Kursk submarine).
....
What exactly would it be -- caring for the lives in the Western word meaning? How many young Western lives have been lost fighting for this cause? Was anybody held accontable? Not to mention the lives of those people whom "the West" doesn't even care to count.


Last edited by leonie; 19.06.2014 at 07:53.
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Old 19.06.2014, 07:58
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Relax, nobody is proposing to ban him.. We are merely suggesting to send him to Crimea for a short holiday to get a taste of the Russian "democracy" there - I'm happy to contribute to that trip, and even draw a travel plan for him as I know the Crimea inside out
I would also like to be offered a few free trips.
In this forum we are currently discussing issues such as Ukraine, Iraq, the Malaysia airlines flight, the attack to the US embassy in Libya and the Spanish King's abdication.
If we have to visit the places in order to have the right to an opinion, may I be sent to the Canary Islands please on your expenses?
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Old 19.06.2014, 12:17
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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By what logic do you conclude that "Russia is the only external nation to benefit from this crisis"?

The US government has plenty to benefit from the situation. Although losing Crimea wasn't part of their plan, absorbing Ukraine into NATO was, and it is succeeding. The net effect will further isolate Russia from yet another neighbor, and lock Ukraine into a permanent debt arrangement with US/European governments and their central banks.
About" By what logic do you conclude that "Russia is the only external nation to benefit from this crisis"?"

Well Russia is the only nation to have benefited so far, I mean over the Crimea, simple logic really.

US may benefit in the future but no benefits today, quite simple really.

I do not see any possibility of Ukraine joining NATO.

Ukraine borrowed money from IMF not US/Europe, try checking the IMF contributors list?

Anyway Ukraine is locked into large debts with Russia so the debt situation is relatively equal East/West.
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Old 19.06.2014, 12:19
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I would also like to be offered a few free trips.
In this forum we are currently discussing issues such as Ukraine, Iraq, the Malaysia airlines flight, the attack to the US embassy in Libya and the Spanish King's abdication.
If we have to visit the places in order to have the right to an opinion, may I be sent to the Canary Islands please on your expenses?
Can we open a thread on Southern California, something positive - not earthquakes.
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Old 19.06.2014, 12:56
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Kiev sent no army and no police, and still, heavy weapons were used against civilians called terrorists in governmental rhetorics. Democracy it is not.
Kiev did not need to send army and police, they were already there and did nothing? That was my point.

About " civilians called terrorists in governmental rhetorics." You mean the civilians who are shooting down military aircraft; no doubt the arms supplied by the tooth fairy who grants all wishes.
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Old 19.06.2014, 17:38
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Kiev did not need to send army and police, they were already there and did nothing? That was my point.

About " civilians called terrorists in governmental rhetorics." You mean the civilians who are shooting down military aircraft; no doubt the arms supplied by the tooth fairy who grants all wishes.
You are putting everybody into the same pot, this is just not possible. Of course there are arms in Eastern Ukraine, there were before the uprise for the usual criminal reasons and during imported from where ever they wanted. It's not exactly difficult to get arms from the mafia in Ukraine (or Russia). Fact is that Kiev had no second thought sending armed groups that were neither police nor army, hence a private militia paid for by obviously somebody. This is not democracy, just lawless privately controlled men for the dirty work. What distinguish them from any mafia is not obvious at all. Still, the western media do not question anything about who is shooting on the rebellion's side.

In a Russian brain, putting down an elected government is a problem. You'll ask American brains whether that's a problem for them or not. I don't know. But from that point on, the logic from Moscow is bulletproof. Not nice, but logical. One can't say the same for western powers putting their hands in every single destabilization operation in eastern Europe since day one the wall fell down. Even Germany doesn't want to be seen with the Americans at the moment. Merkel is not exactly critical to the US, so here is a hint.

Does Putin have his fingers in it too? Of course!! He said it openly since day one. Just not with the army. One can accuse Russia to let arms though, but they couldn't stop them even if they wanted to. The issue is however no way imperial or whatever the delirious rhetorics of the western countries make us think. Why should any Russian president be happy that its country is getting isolated by foreign funded so called revolutions all linked to the Nato expansion plans? The US doesn't let that happen at its doorstep either, see Venezuela and Bolivia. Why should others than Americans want double standards in their favor?

Ukraine is corrupt. This is the only problem. Anything else is just drama. Deadly drama, but nevertheless only drama. Why? Ask Washington, not Moscow. People Europeans and Americans do business with every day in that region incl. Russia are at least as corrupt as Yanukovich, Timoshenko and any oligarch. The hope that Poroshenko is already rich enough to resist more corruption doesn't mean he won't have any other choice than obeying the way things work there and corrupt more people, both easter, wester, middle, upper or karpathian Ukrainians. Or do you think Georgia got less corrupt under the years of Saakashvili government with both American and French advisors in the ministries?
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Old 19.06.2014, 18:08
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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...Ukraine borrowed money from IMF not US/Europe, try checking the IMF contributors list?...
Try checking who controls it. (Hint: Not the contributors.)

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...Anyway Ukraine is locked into large debts with Russia so the debt situation is relatively equal East/West...
Not for long, I suspect.
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