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Old 09.05.2022, 14:48
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

It's nostalgia day so let us get carried away by it and look at other times when war material was sent to small country defending its territory:

Quote:
October 30, 1962
MINUTES OF CONVERSATION BETWEEN THE DELEGATIONS OF THE CPCZ AND THE CPSU, THE KREMLIN (EXCERPT)

Present: CPCz: Novotný, Hendrych, Šimůnek, Dvořák

CPSU: Khrushchev, Kozlov, Brezhnev, Kosygin, Kolesnikov, Zimyanin

...We received a letter from [Fidel] Castro in which he told us that the USA would attack Cuba within twenty-four hours. That would mean nuclear war. We could not be certain that they would not do so. The presence of our missiles provoked them too much; the Americans thus sensed the winds of war from up close. It was necessary to act quickly. That is why we issued the statement [on 28 October] that we would dismantle the missiles if the USA declared it swore not to attack Cuba.

In a letter, Fidel Castro proposed that we ourselves should be the first to start an atomic war. [3] Do you know what that would mean? That probably cannot even be expressed at all. We were completely aghast. Castro clearly has no idea about what thermonuclear war is. After all, if a war started, it would primarily be Cuba that would vanish from the face of the Earth. At the same time, it is clear that with a first strike one cannot today knock the opponent out of the fight. There can always be a counter-strike, which can be devastating. There are, after all, missiles in the earth,which intelligence does not know about; there are missiles on submarines, which cannot be knocked out of the fight right away, and so on. What would we gain if we ourselves started a war? After all, millions of people would die, in our country too. Can we even contemplate a thing like that? Could we allow ourselves to threaten the world of socialism which was hard won by the working class? Only a person who has no idea what nuclear war means, or who has been so blinded, for instance, like Castro, by revolutionary passion, can talk like that. We did not, of course, take up that proposal, especially because we had a chance to avert war. What the Americans feared most, by the way, was that the missiles were in the hands of the Cubans and that the Cubans would start a war. That is why in our letter to the president we stressed also that the missiles were in the hands of our officers, who would not fire before receiving orders from the Soviet government. From our intelligence reports we knew that the Americans were afraid of war. Through certain persons, who they knew were in contact with us, they made it clear they would be grateful if we helped them get out of this conflict.

We agreed to dismantle the missiles also because their presence in Cuba is essentially of little military importance to us. The missiles were meant to protect Cuba from attack; they helped us to wrench out of the imperialists the statement that they would not attack Cuba, and they thus served their main purpose. Otherwise we can hit the USA from elsewhere, and we do not need missiles in Cuba for that. On the contrary, their deployment on our territory is safer for us and our technical personnel who look after them....
https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/115219

And if someone is still interested of how small countries are used in proxy wars, enjoy this lovely letter from Nikita Khrushchev to Fidel Castro (October 30, 1962). Of course, Mr. Khrushchev acknowledges the invasion risk but tells Mr. Castro to stop asking about a preemptive strike on the US....not cool man.

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In your October 27th wire, you proposed that we should be the first to carry out a nuclear attack on enemy territory. Naturally, you can understand where that would have led. It wouldn’t have been a simple strike but the start of a termonuclear world war.

Dear Comrade Fidel Castro; I find your proposal to be mistaken even though I understand your reasons.

..... (long part about how we all die in fire and that US publicly promising no to invade Cuba is a WIN).

Comrade Fidel Castro; we decided to send you this answer as quickly as possible. We shall make a more detailed analysis of what has occurred in a letter that we shall send you soon. In that letter we shall make a deeper analysis of the situation and give our opinion on the results of how the crisis was settled.

At this moment, negotiations for a settlement are starting and we ask you to communicate your position to us. As for us, we shall be keeping you informed on the progress of the negotiations and we shall be making all the necessary consultations.
http://www.fidelcastro.cu/en/corresp...ctober-30-1962

Back to 2022, I guess what the Russians fear the most is the same Americans feared the most back on 1962: that Cubans/Ukranians have their hands on weapons. Because the aggressor remembers what they did, and fear retaliation in murder-suicide form.

These events showed that sending war material to small country defending its territory is a bargaining chip. Weapons, even missiles with nuclear warheads being 90 nautical miles from US borders had not strategic advantage for nuclear deterrence back on 1962, much less today. Economic sanctions are also bargaining chips. Something has to be offered to the people taking over from Putin. I bet 3 beers that something is lifting economic sanctions.

The Russians did manage to bring missiles to Cuba back on 1962. These days, the whole thing is something blurry about "nazis". Putin may probably follow Mr. Khrushchev path, claim victory and later taken down by local political opponents.
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  #6262  
Old 09.05.2022, 19:34
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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It's nostalgia day so let us get carried away by it and look at other times when war material was sent to small country defending its territory:



https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/115219

And if someone is still interested of how small countries are used in proxy wars, enjoy this lovely letter from Nikita Khrushchev to Fidel Castro (October 30, 1962). Of course, Mr. Khrushchev acknowledges the invasion risk but tells Mr. Castro to stop asking about a preemptive strike on the US....not cool man.



http://www.fidelcastro.cu/en/corresp...ctober-30-1962

Back to 2022, I guess what the Russians fear the most is the same Americans feared the most back on 1962: that Cubans/Ukranians have their hands on weapons. Because the aggressor remembers what they did, and fear retaliation in murder-suicide form.

These events showed that sending war material to small country defending its territory is a bargaining chip. Weapons, even missiles with nuclear warheads being 90 nautical miles from US borders had not strategic advantage for nuclear deterrence back on 1962, much less today. Economic sanctions are also bargaining chips. Something has to be offered to the people taking over from Putin. I bet 3 beers that something is lifting economic sanctions.

The Russians did manage to bring missiles to Cuba back on 1962. These days, the whole thing is something blurry about "nazis". Putin may probably follow Mr. Khrushchev path, claim victory and later taken down by local political opponents.
But America did not bomb the Cubans in order to liberate them.
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  #6263  
Old 09.05.2022, 19:41
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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It's nostalgia day so let us get carried away by it and look at other times when war material was sent to small country defending its territory:

https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/115219

And if someone is still interested of how small countries are used in proxy wars, enjoy this lovely letter from Nikita Khrushchev to Fidel Castro (October 30, 1962). Of course, Mr. Khrushchev acknowledges the invasion risk but tells Mr. Castro to stop asking about a preemptive strike on the US....not cool man.

http://www.fidelcastro.cu/en/corresp...ctober-30-1962

Back to 2022, I guess what the Russians fear the most is the same Americans feared the most back on 1962: that Cubans/Ukranians have their hands on weapons. Because the aggressor remembers what they did, and fear retaliation in murder-suicide form.

These events showed that sending war material to small country defending its territory is a bargaining chip. Weapons, even missiles with nuclear warheads being 90 nautical miles from US borders had not strategic advantage for nuclear deterrence back on 1962, much less today. Economic sanctions are also bargaining chips. Something has to be offered to the people taking over from Putin. I bet 3 beers that something is lifting economic sanctions.

The Russians did manage to bring missiles to Cuba back on 1962. These days, the whole thing is something blurry about "nazis". Putin may probably follow Mr. Khrushchev path, claim victory and later taken down by local political opponents.
Yes October 2022 marks the 60th anniversary of the Cuban Missile Crisis, lets hope were not tettering on the edge of another
nuclear missile crisis this year.
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  #6264  
Old 09.05.2022, 19:59
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Yes October 2022 marks the 60th anniversary of the Cuban Missile Crisis, lets hope were not tettering on the edge of another
nuclear missile crisis this year.
Memories, my first IT job in London far from home and expecting nukes to come raining down at any moment.
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Old 09.05.2022, 20:47
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Yes October 2022 marks the 60th anniversary of the Cuban Missile Crisis, lets hope were not tettering on the edge of another
nuclear missile crisis this year.
I grew up in the 80s, as a (young) member of CND in the UK. Expecting (and often in my dreams seeing) the flash and mushroom cloud

I seriously doubt we're at Cuban missile crisis levels.
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  #6266  
Old 09.05.2022, 20:50
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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But America did not bomb the Cubans in order to liberate them.
Tried to liberate them but failed. Bay of Pigs invasion, one year before on 1961.

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Memories, my first IT job in London far from home and expecting nukes to come raining down at any moment.
Different times. I wasn't there, but it seems there were many regular tests of high-altitude nuclear explosions. US was going crazy with 50+ tests at the Nevada test site and 30+ on the Pacifiy...only on 1962

I had a sphincter clenching moment when I read the US and Russia conducted 2 ICBM tests each one during the days of the missile crisis. Any of these test could be misinterpreted as a 1st strike triggering full retaliation of each side.

I only remember the news of France doing the last nuclear test on 1996. Since then, only the craziness of NK but not the stress of basically more than 1 nuclear test per week. On top, loss of submarines, planes crashing while carrying bombs, NPP accidents. These days are way calmer.
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  #6267  
Old 09.05.2022, 21:40
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I grew up in the 80s, as a (young) member of CND in the UK. Expecting (and often in my dreams seeing) the flash and mushroom cloud

I seriously doubt we're at Cuban missile crisis levels.
Putin did not even hint at nukes in his victory day speech today so I have hopes this element will fade away.
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  #6268  
Old 10.05.2022, 07:19
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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vushka's narrative that the West is fighting this war with Russia, using Ukraine as a proxy. The Kremlin have claimed something similar.
so is this still just russian propoganda?
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  #6269  
Old 10.05.2022, 07:42
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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so is this still just russian propoganda?
to some people, anything not 100% the narrative is russian propaganda

Never mind the pentagon is admitting to help ukraine sink the Moskva and attack Russia

The US politicians won't be happy until we're dragged into a war over this bs
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  #6270  
Old 10.05.2022, 09:38
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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But America did not bomb the Cubans in order to liberate them.
But but let's just make these silly comparisons in order to elevate Putin's responsibilities....anyways, the most annoying thing in this war and propaganda war is that Putin is trying to convince his countrymen, and probably totally succeeded, that Russia attacked Ukraine preemptively, otherwise they would have been attacked by Ukraine.
And of course, the most fascist regime in the world, currently, pretending to de-nazify a country which is only defending itself.
Nato and the West is to blame here, not Putin and his death cult, nooo, because we're living in really psychotic times when white is black and black is white.

Last edited by greenmount; 10.05.2022 at 09:50.
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  #6271  
Old 10.05.2022, 10:04
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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to some people, anything not 100% the narrative is russian propaganda
And to other people, anything that's not in accord with the Kremlin narrative is "the narrative" -> WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!!

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so is this still just russian propoganda?
Well - it's the narrative that the Kremlin is putting out.

Anyway, never mind the humpty dumpties


Whether it's a proxy war or not depends on the definition of "proxy war". There's no real consensus concerning this. Personally, I follow the OED definition:
Proxy war: a war instigated by a major power which does not itself become involved.

Accordingly, since this war was instigated by Russia and Russia is heavily involved, it is not a proxy war. (Unless you're a conspiracy theorist, in which case, you might claim that the US has been fomenting this war for decades - you know the "this is all NATO's fault, poor old Russia is just defending itself" theory.)

Others might give it a wider meaning, to include any war where either of the belligerents is receiving help from non-combatants, while not being directly involved. But the conspiracy theorist probably don't like this definition, since it doesn't imply nefarious long-term actions by the West either side.
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Old 10.05.2022, 10:06
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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DOUBLETHINK means the power of holding two
contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and
accepting both of them. The Party intellectual knows in which
direction his memories must be altered; he therefore knows
that he is playing tricks with reality; but by the exercise of
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be carried out with sufficient precision, but it also has to be
unconscious, or it would bring with it a feeling of falsity and
hence of guilt. DOUBLETHINK lies at the very heart of Ingsoc,
since the essential act of the Party is to use conscious
deception while retaining the firmness of purpose that goes
with complete honesty. To tell deliberate lies while genuinely
believing in them, to forget any fact that has become
inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again,
to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed,
to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while
to take account of the reality which one denies—all this is
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  #6273  
Old 10.05.2022, 10:20
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Interesting analysis here of Russian progaganda trends here:

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/grotesque-kre...oody-tragedy/#

Of course, some will claim this is just "the narrative".
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  #6274  
Old 10.05.2022, 11:02
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Time to worry, Russia's embassy in Bern said:

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Up to 2,000 Swiss volunteers fought in the Waffen SS during World War II. They killed not only citizens of the Soviet Union, but also citizens of many European countries
https://www.blick.ch/schweiz/kommts-...d17470471.html

There's only 1 logical conclusion: Switzerland needs to be denazified
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  #6275  
Old 10.05.2022, 11:18
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Time to worry, Russia's embassy in Bern said:



https://www.blick.ch/schweiz/kommts-...d17470471.html

There's only 1 logical conclusion: Switzerland needs to be denazified

No doubt it needs, to some extend, as well as many other countries these days.
But I hope some can denazify themselves without calling Russians for assistance again and again.
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Old 10.05.2022, 11:23
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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No doubt it needs, to some extend, as well as many other countries these days.
But I hope some can denazify themselves without calling Russians for assistance again and again.
The only one that needs denazifying is Russia itself.
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Old 10.05.2022, 11:25
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Time to worry, Russia's embassy in Bern said:



https://www.blick.ch/schweiz/kommts-...d17470471.html

There's only 1 logical conclusion: Switzerland needs to be denazified
Being Switzerland there is a Swiss Govt. website that lists where Swiss served in foreign armies, I did not find a list there of the many Swiss who fought with the French resistance.
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  #6278  
Old 10.05.2022, 11:35
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrTxm9AqP38

First level - soldier taking pleasure in torturing people.
Second level - telling that to his mother and then she admits she has similar urges inside her.

I guess the level of sickness in minds of these people is just unlimited.
They really need some fu**ing collective theraphy with a shrink.
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  #6279  
Old 10.05.2022, 11:43
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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No doubt it needs, to some extend, as well as many other countries these days.
But I hope some can denazify themselves without calling Russians for assistance again and again.
hey, it was a joke mocking the Russians seeing nazis everywhere.

It's like someone claiming everyone is crazy. Probably the one claiming everyone is crazy is the crazy one.
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Old 10.05.2022, 11:58
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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hey, it was a joke mocking the Russians seeing nazis everywhere.

It's like someone claiming everyone is crazy. Probably the one claiming everyone is crazy is the crazy one.

But everyone *is* crazy, isn't he? To certain extent.
My response was kind of joke too. But...
Russians are just more fed up by nazis than anyone else. Yes may be even paranoid at times. But not in case of Ukraine, if someone cares to look impartially.
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