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  #6321  
Old 10.05.2022, 22:38
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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These colors were "stopping ethnic cleansing".

If the Russian armament was not crap their companies would also be showing the benefit; maybe if Russia deployed their latest products in the Ukraine it would benefit, or maybe just show more failures?
Here https://www.theguardian.com/commenti.../serbia-kosovo

So basically you are saying - cool, the Americans are profiting from the war in Ukraine - they are producing high-end weaponry, and, tough luck, the Russians are missing out - their weapons suck. Where should I begin...
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  #6322  
Old 10.05.2022, 22:49
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Just added something you may have missed. Of course, perhaps Russia views Poland like they view Ukraine. Never really a proper country, so to be annihilated at will.
I didn't add that on purpose (and I'm Polish), because we saw clearly before that every accusation of barbarism will be pushed back by arz as fake or some other quibble.

For me, it's really about honest understanding of how people like arz think.
What worries me is that I'm burning my energy discussing with paid trolls :/
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  #6323  
Old 10.05.2022, 22:56
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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So, apparently it's a win-win deal. Ukraine gets weapons, manufacturers in countries manufacturing said weapons get publicity and probably orders. Cherry on top is making Russian made machines look vulnerable to relatively cheap weapons.
definitely a winner for the west/NATO. not so sure about ukraine though.
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  #6324  
Old 10.05.2022, 23:31
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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definitely a winner for the west/NATO. not so sure about ukraine though.
Not being forced to surrender is a win, and destroying many invaders is also a win.
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  #6325  
Old 11.05.2022, 07:06
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Well the US have shown their colors a long time ago - Yugoslavia

PS Lockheed Martin stock grew 30% over the last 6 months
Didn't they all want a separation from each other? Including Croats from Serbs, and those share the same language (as far as I know)? They even fought fiercely against each other. Slovenians always considered themselves a different breed, more civilised, prosperous, similar to the superiority complex (not totally unjustified) of the Czechs in the Central and Eastern Europe. So.....but anyway, we digress. Totally different context, reasons and level of destruction of the enemy.
(I remember I was still a child during the Yugoslav wars and the public opinion in my country - at that time -was very much against Nato bombardments and against that war itself....but what did we know, the info or media channels were far away from today)

Last edited by greenmount; 11.05.2022 at 07:28.
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  #6326  
Old 11.05.2022, 07:34
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I didn't add that on purpose (and I'm Polish), because we saw clearly before that every accusation of barbarism will be pushed back by arz as fake or some other quibble.

For me, it's really about honest understanding of how people like arz think.
What worries me is that I'm burning my energy discussing with paid trolls :/
We spoke about Nazism, not barbarism.
barbarism is a subjective term, and examples of barbarism can be found in the history of almost any European state. Nazism has a very strict definition, and the incorrect use of this term has an obvious goal to disguise the true causes and culprits of the conflict.
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  #6327  
Old 11.05.2022, 07:52
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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What's interesting is that we (of the free West) are accused of also being fed a narrative. But in Western countries, journalists uncover scandal after scandal. I'm thinking Watergate, Irangate, Horizon.... So many to choose from!

In Western countries nefarious actions are found out. Corrupt politicians are (eventually!) thrown out of office. As opposed to throwing journalists and opposition politicians into prison.
And if you shout F**k the Government or write "Criminal" on the door of the president or prime-minister (even with faeces) you'll be fined, not thrown into prison for 10 years or more, or die of suspect causes and in suspect circumstances.
I don't know about others, but I personally find that very comforting...things are definitely not perfect in the West, but if I had to choose? Oh dear.
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  #6328  
Old 11.05.2022, 08:57
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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The narrative of the "free West" ?
Interesting view here. You don't feel the West is free? Switzerland for instance, is it not free, or is it "not West"?

Do you think you're living in an authoritarian society? Compared to which countries, what are your reference points? What should the West do to be "more free", "freer" than it already is, since all the extremes are tolerated (up to a point, of course)?
Do you see so much tolerance anywhere else??

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The Kremlin narrative at the start of this thread. Didn't turn out so, did it?
Oh my, NAT. You quoted a banned troll. You bored?
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  #6329  
Old 11.05.2022, 13:14
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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We spoke about Nazism, not barbarism.
barbarism is a subjective term, and examples of barbarism can be found in the history of almost any European state. Nazism has a very strict definition, and the incorrect use of this term has an obvious goal to disguise the true causes and culprits of the conflict.
I never planed to discuss that, but since you are asking so nicely:
Nazism was in Nazi Germany by Nazi Party and Nazi Adolf.

There is no Nazism in Ukraine nor in Russia. We don't need to identify deeds with some ideology. There are just deeds that are right of wrong.

You can "troll around" how right and wrong are subjective terms, but they are not. Not for mentally healthy people.

Last edited by Excad; 11.05.2022 at 13:24.
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  #6330  
Old 11.05.2022, 13:21
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Nazism has a very strict definition, and the incorrect use of this term has an obvious goal to disguise the true causes and culprits of the conflict.
This is exactly and precisely true. The incorrect usage is in play in order to disguise that it Russia that has caused this conflict and Russia that is the culprit.

From the OED - Nazism.

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1. historical The political principles of the National Socialist German Workers' Party.
1.1 derogatory Extreme racist or authoritarian views or behaviour.
You can read all about it here.

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Nazism shared many elements with Italian fascism. However, Nazism was far more extreme both in its ideas and in its practice. In almost every respect it was an anti-intellectual and atheoretical movement, emphasizing the will of the charismatic dictator as the sole source of inspiration of a people and a nation, as well as a vision of annihilation of all enemies of the Aryan Volk as the one and only goal of Nazi policy.
Hugo Rifkind commented in his article (the one I mentioned before) that the Russian definition is along the lines of "If you don't want to be Russian, then you must be a Nazi" (especially if your country was once part of the USSR, but also applies in part to Warsaw Pact former members, like Poland).
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  #6331  
Old 11.05.2022, 13:51
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Not being forced to surrender is a win, and destroying many invaders is also a win.
but getting used as cannon fodder in a prolonged war for the west is not a win.
i guess we will have to agree to disagree.
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  #6332  
Old 11.05.2022, 13:57
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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but getting used as cannon fodder in a prolonged war for the west is not a win.
i guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Nope, we can still play at arm chair psychologist.

There are certain personality types that for whatever reason are very competitive. People like this won't acknowledge a win unless one side wins all and all others lose. When both sides of the deal, it's perceived as failure. So, competitiveness becomes a ballast because opportunities are let go.

So, please take a seat and tell us how you always get the best of deals and no one, no one, has ever profited from you or your efforts.
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  #6333  
Old 11.05.2022, 14:25
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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but getting used as cannon fodder in a prolonged war for the west is not a win.
i guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Do you mean the Russian soldiers who are ordered to be there but have nothing to gain/win?
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  #6334  
Old 11.05.2022, 15:14
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

From Komsomolskaya Pravda.

"Hitler's former allies are now arming Ukraine. Today [Europe] is working for Ukrainian fascists".
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  #6335  
Old 11.05.2022, 22:13
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

https://youtu.be/fy910FG46C4

To make a bit more clear what vushka and arz are talking about.
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  #6336  
Old 12.05.2022, 00:11
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quite entertianing new YT channel I found filmed on the ground from UA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W56ia702Mo

In other news, I saw Western donated artillery has reached the front lines and now UA is outranging Russian artillery. I'll be interested to see if/how this changes Russia's approach.
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  #6337  
Old 12.05.2022, 09:16
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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https://youtu.be/fy910FG46C4

To make a bit more clear what vushka and arz are talking about.

Still a very softened interpretation.

What happens in the schools and youth camps is much more impressive.
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  #6338  
Old 12.05.2022, 10:13
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Finland joining NATO will double the length of Russian land border with NATO!!
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  #6339  
Old 12.05.2022, 10:40
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Still a very softened interpretation.

What happens in the schools and youth camps is much more impressive.
Sure, let's talk about Azov battalion not about the Russian army....

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but getting used as cannon fodder in a prolonged war for the west is not a win.
i guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Actually they fight for their land, literally. Even those Ukrainians of other ethnicities. And many are even dying in this war....I don't think there's stronger proof that people fight for their home other than this. And we are talking about people who could have ran away from this war asking for citizenship or protection from neighbouring countries. (history is complicated, isn't it)

Last edited by greenmount; 12.05.2022 at 10:52.
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Old 12.05.2022, 11:14
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Actually they fight for their land, literally. Even those Ukrainians of other ethnicities. And many are even dying in this war....I don't think there's stronger proof that people fight for their home other than this. And we are talking about people who could have ran away from this war asking for citizenship or protection from neighbouring countries. (history is complicated, isn't it)
two problems i have with this:

1- an article i shared a few days ago indicated that the west would not be ready to reach an agreement with russia even if ukraine is.
2- ukrainian men are conscripted and not allowed to leave the country. so they don't get to choose whether they fight for nato or not.

Last edited by vushka; 12.05.2022 at 11:43.
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