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Old 12.05.2022, 11:39
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Sure, let's talk about Azov battalion not about the Russian army....
Of course everyone is free to speak about one side of the problem
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  #6342  
Old 12.05.2022, 15:05
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Sure, let's talk about Azov battalion not about the Russian army....
You mean those 900, vs the 280'000 Russian soldiers?

It'd be funny if it were tragic. 280'000 soldiers invade to protect civilians from 900. And they still couldn't do it.
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  #6343  
Old 12.05.2022, 15:40
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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You mean those 900, vs the 280'000 Russian soldiers?

It'd be funny if it were tragic. 280'000 soldiers invade to protect civilians from 900. And they still couldn't do it.
there are certainly other neo-nazi elements in ukraine too. like all countries.
but as far as i know azov was the only openly neo-nazi battalion the ukrainians were stupid enough to officially integrate into the military. unlike other countries.

(im not suggesting this justifies the war, am only pointing out that azov is simply the low hanging fruit)
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Old 12.05.2022, 15:45
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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there are certainly other neo-nazi elements in ukraine too. like all countries.
but as far as i know azov was the only openly neo-nazi battalion the ukrainians were stupid enough to officially integrate into the military. unlike other countries.

(im not suggesting this justifies the war, am only pointing out that azov is simply the low hanging fruit)
Why stupid?

Bringing Azov in under military discipline seemed like a very good idea to me.
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Old 12.05.2022, 15:59
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Quite entertianing new YT channel I found filmed on the ground from UA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W56ia702Mo

In other news, I saw Western donated artillery has reached the front lines and now UA is outranging Russian artillery. I'll be interested to see if/how this changes Russia's approach.
Not exactly outranging, both sides have the Soviet 2S7 Pion which has a range of up to 47Km.
The Western artillery is far more accurate at long range, see the recent social media photos of destroyed Russian pontoon bridges.
At the maximum range, the Soviet 2S7 Pion will only land a shell within a half Km of the target
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Old 12.05.2022, 16:32
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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You mean those 900, vs the 280'000 Russian soldiers?

It'd be funny if it were tragic. 280'000 soldiers invade to protect civilians from 900. And they still couldn't do it.

rather approximately 4,000 of all battalions together versus 150,000 total Russian forces including service staff.

But these 4,000 were specially trained as the backbone of the Ukrainian army and perform the same functions as SS divisions in the German army and politics before and during WWII.
And yes, 900 armed fanatics can have an unbelievable influence on 30 mln civilians, if supported internationally.
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Old 12.05.2022, 16:37
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

if anything the russian invasion backfired. the azov fighters have increased in profile and previously had little success politically. i suspect after the war is over, they could end up being a much stronger political force.
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Old 12.05.2022, 17:03
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Why stupid?

Bringing Azov in under military discipline seemed like a very good idea to me.
If only the Russian soldiers were under military discipline.
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Old 12.05.2022, 17:05
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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if anything the russian invasion backfired. the azov fighters have increased in profile and previously had little success politically. i suspect after the war is over, they could end up being a much stronger political force.
The law of unintended consequences.

So far
1. The West largely unifies
2. Finland and Sweden join NATO (in the offing)
3. Azov becomes a political force

Any others?
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Old 12.05.2022, 17:06
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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if anything the russian invasion backfired. the azov fighters have increased in profile and previously had little success politically. i suspect after the war is over, they could end up being a much stronger political force.
id say they've only been tolerated due to the war and their anti-russian sentiments.

russia will likely (further) liquidate many of them. and after the war any 'westernisation' of ukraine will require them to be removed anyway.
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Old 12.05.2022, 17:16
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

The Overlooked Reason Russia’s Invasion Is Floundering
Russia has failed to understand the importance of airpower.

By Phillips Payson O’Brien and Edward Stringer

----

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...kraine/629803/

About the authors: Phillips Payson O’Brien is a professor of strategic studies at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland. He is the author of How the War Was Won: Air-Sea Power and Allied Victory in World War II. Edward Stringer is a retired Royal Air Force air marshal and a senior fellow at Policy Exchange.

Airpower should have been one of Russia’s greatest advantages over Ukraine. With almost 4,000 combat aircraft and extensive experience bombing targets in Syria, Georgia, and Chechnya, Russia’s air force was expected to play a vital role in the invasion, allowing the Russian army to plunge deep into Ukraine, seize Kyiv, and destroy the Ukrainian military. But more than two months into the war, Vladimir Putin’s air force is still fighting for control of the skies.

The Russian air force’s failure is perhaps the most important, but least discussed, story of the military conflict so far. Ukrainian forces showed surprising strength in the air war, and adapted as the fighting progressed. But either side of this war could still gain air supremacy—and fundamentally change the course of the conflict.

Airpower is potentially decisive in any war, but difficult to wield effectively. Air forces are dependent on an array of technologies that require highly trained personnel who can quickly set up what amounts to an airborne military ecosystem: airborne radar stations to provide command and control, fighters to protect and police the skies, refueling aircraft to keep everyone full of gas, electronic-warfare planes to keep enemy defenses suppressed, and a range of intelligence-gatherers and attack aircraft to locate and destroy enemy forces. These sorts of combined operations involve hundreds of aircraft and thousands of people in a tightly choreographed dance that takes a lifetime to master. But when managed correctly, these overlapping operations allow a military to dominate the skies, making life much easier for the ground or naval forces below.

Unfortunately for the Russians, the recent modernization of the Russian air force, although intended to enable it to conduct modern combined operations, was mostly for show. The Russians wasted money and effort on corruption and inefficiency. Though much was made of the flashy new equipment, such as the much-hyped SU-34 strike aircraft, the Russian air force continues to suffer from flawed logistics operations and the lack of regular, realistic training. Above all, the autocratic Russian kleptocracy does not trust low-ranking and middle-ranking officers, and so cannot allow the imaginative, flexible decision making that NATO air forces rely upon.

All this meant that when the invasion started, the Russian air force was incapable of running a well-thought-out, complex campaign. Instead of working to control the skies, Russia’s air force has mostly provided air support to ground troops or bombed Ukrainian cities. In this it has followed the traditional tactics of a continental power that privileges land forces. Focusing on ground troops can work if you have almost endless numbers of soldiers and are prepared to lose them. But so wedded is Russia to its history of successes on the ground that it fails to understand the importance of airpower.

“Russia has never fully appreciated the use of airpower beyond support to ground forces,” David A. Deptula, a retired U.S. Air Force lieutenant general, told us. “As a result, Russia, in all its wars, has never conceived of or run a strategic air campaign.”

Russian aircraft are instead left flying their straightforward missions, many of which use single aircraft without the mutual support from combined air operations that would be expected in an advanced NATO air force. The pilots are given a target; fly in quickly to attack it, in many cases relying on unguided munitions to try to hit their target; and then fly out and try to not get shot down. They are not allowed to act flexibly within their commanders’ intent to achieve a mission. They have task orders and they execute them, come what may. Even Russia’s vaunted intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance capabilities seem surprisingly weak. Rarely do Russian forces seem capable of identifying possible Ukrainian targets and deploying air assets to attack them swiftly enough to make a difference.

Of course, the most important reason for the failure of Russian airpower, and the evident caution of Russian pilots, has been Ukrainian opposition. Unlike their enemy, the Ukrainians have developed a coherent concept of air operations, one that has allowed them to block what looked like an easy path to Russian air dominance.

The Ukrainians have integrated a range of air and anti-air capabilities to stymie the much larger Russian air force. Starting with cheap, handheld, portable surface-to-air missiles, the Ukrainians have been able to restrict Russian airpower to a few eastern and southern areas, greatly limiting Russian freedom of maneuver. The addition of much more potent, and longer-range, S-300 missile systems from Slovakia makes the Russians even more vulnerable. The threat of the S-300s forces individual Russian aircraft, which generally lack refueling, electronic-warfare, and command-and-control support, to fly low to the ground to screen themselves from attack. This, in turn, makes them more vulnerable to the handheld surface-to-air missiles. Ukraine cannot target every Russian aircraft, but it has cleverly used what it has to ensure that Russian pilots worry they might be targeted anywhere, forcing them to behave more defensively and reducing their effectiveness.

Ukraine’s ability to contest its airspace has not only provided protection to its own forces but also allowed it to occasionally go on the offensive. Early in the war, the Ukrainians were able to use Turkish-made Bayraktar drones to attack some high-value targets. The Ukrainians have also used drones to identify and destroy Russian ground-to-air missiles, making Russian ground forces more vulnerable to attack from above.

The Ukrainians have also shown a far greater ability than the Russians to use their limited airpower resources creatively. The sinking of the Russian Black Sea flagship Moskva, which stunned the world, seems to have come about through a clever double punch. Ukrainian officials have claimed that they used an unmanned aerial vehicle to distract the Moskva’s anti-air capabilities, then launched their homegrown Neptune anti-ship missiles before the confused Russian crew could react.

This inventive use of airpower reveals that the Ukrainians might even have a more sophisticated understanding of air operations than even many NATO countries, which take their dominance of the air for granted. What the Ukrainians have done—contesting the skies against a richer, more powerful enemy on the cheap—is extremely difficult. The West has much to learn from Ukraine’s successes, Deptula told us. “We have become so dominant in the air that we have never had to think through how we would use airpower if we were the inferior force,” he said. “Ukraine is posing us some very interesting questions that we should seriously consider, if only to understand how a clever opponent would take us on.”

The coming weeks will reveal whether the Russians have the capability to learn from their mistakes and take better advantage of their still-massive numerical superiority in aircraft. The Ukrainians, on the other hand, will soon see their offensive air capabilities grow. Their newest drones may be enabling better long-range artillery targeting. On April 30, Ukrainian artillery fire seemed to come close to hitting General Valery Gerasimov, the Russian chief of the general staff, while he was visiting the front. The Ukrainians are receiving even more advanced systems, including new Switchblade and Phoenix Ghost drones, which have the capability of lingering over enemy positions for some time before being used to destroy vehicles.

As long as the airspace over the field of battle remains contested, the Ukrainians will be able to improve and expand their use of airpower. They may not win the war outright. But they’ve already revolutionized how the next ones will be fought.
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  #6352  
Old 12.05.2022, 17:39
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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The law of unintended consequences.

So far
1. The West largely unifies
2. Finland and Sweden join NATO (in the offing)
3. Azov becomes a political force

Any others?
4. western liberals end up downplaying and supporting neo-nazis.
5. global food and gas shortage
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  #6353  
Old 12.05.2022, 17:48
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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4. western liberals end up downplaying and supporting neo-nazis.
5. global food and gas shortage
You are ignoring the fact there are already very many neo-nazis in Europe, Azov is just a drop in the ocean
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Old 12.05.2022, 17:56
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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You are ignoring the fact there are already very many neo-nazis in Europe, Azov is just a drop in the ocean
i don't think any of them are glorified and celebrated like azov though. anyway im not finished yet:

6. further mass migration/social unrest due to food shortages and famine.
7. the west eventually seeking a compromise with russia, leaving ukrainians to wonder whether it was really all worth it...
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Old 12.05.2022, 17:58
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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leaving ukrainians to wonder whether it was really all worth it...
I am sure they regret having started this war already.
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  #6356  
Old 12.05.2022, 18:05
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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  #6357  
Old 12.05.2022, 18:09
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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i don't think any of them are glorified and celebrated like azov though. anyway im not finished yet:

6. further mass migration/social unrest due to food shortages and famine.
7. the west eventually seeking a compromise with russia, leaving ukrainians to wonder whether it was really all worth it...
So you just advocate letting that sucker do what he wants? That the Ukraine should simply accept being slaughtered for his glorified dreams? And many other countries to follow to fulfill his dream of the great russian empire?

Look at what is happening and realize that that can happen then to you and yours….. bring bombed, killed, raped, lose anythinh you have.
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Old 12.05.2022, 18:22
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Poor Nazis, get blamed for so much. Any self respecting National socialist back in the day would be mystified and maybe a bit sad as to what passes as a "Nazi" these days.
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  #6359  
Old 12.05.2022, 18:24
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Sadly, due to the deluded dictator Putin, it looks like almost an entire Russian battalion has been wiped out.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b2077244.html

(Also on many other news outlets - but not Pravda or RT)
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Old 12.05.2022, 18:24
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Poor Nazis, get blamed for so much. Any self respecting National socialist back in the day would be mystified and maybe a bit sad as to what passes as a "Nazi" these days.
Anyone who was part of the USSR or in the Warsaw pact who doesn't like Russia and doesn't want to be allied or part of it.

Quite simple really.
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