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Old 19.06.2014, 19:51
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Try checking who controls it. (Hint: Not the contributors.)


Not for long, I suspect.
Thanks for this fifteen year old link.

You will be surprised to learn things have changed.

BTW, are you now including Japan in Europe/NATO as in your link?
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  #622  
Old 19.06.2014, 20:31
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Thanks for this fifteen year old link.

You will be surprised to learn things have changed.
Exactly how have "things changed"? (Go ahead, "surprise" me! )

Exactly who controls the IMF today who didn't control it fifteen years ago?

Exactly how do you know?

(For the benefit of readers who — unlike marton — are more concerned with facts than obfuscation, it's worthwhile to note that voting power in the IMF is based on a quota system, in which the US has the largest voting block, roughly three times the next highest participant [not to mention US 'allies' who are under various levels of diplomatic pressure to agree with US policies], effectively guaranteeing US control of the IMF's actions. Thus, the IMF and the economies of its client states are harnessed to the yoke of US government's foreign agendas.)
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Last edited by Texaner; 19.06.2014 at 21:21.
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  #623  
Old 19.06.2014, 20:52
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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If we have to visit the places in order to have the right to an opinion, may I be sent to the Canary Islands please on your expenses?
Sure thing. I'll actually be visiting Canary Islands once the summer heat goes away. I could hide you in my suitcase - Swiss Air luggage allowances are very generous. But you have to promise that you are not too fat - otherwise I may have to send you to Iraq..
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  #624  
Old 19.06.2014, 21:27
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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It's not exactly difficult to get arms from the mafia in Ukraine (or Russia).
Why would you talk about something you have no clue about? Before the crisis, it was quite hard to get automatic firearms in Ukraine, and gun crime was very low - against the background of the quite high overall crime level. Someone with AK-47 in his hands would be unheard of. It all changed now, and will never be the same again - thanks to the f**ing Russia.

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Fact is that Kiev had no second thought sending armed groups that were neither police nor army, hence a private militia paid for by obviously somebody. This is not democracy, just lawless privately controlled men for the dirty work.
Same as above - no clue about the real facts.. The private militia your refer to are volunteers who get paid between 0 - 400 USD a month. I have no proven figures for the millitants from the Russian side - but it would be closer to their daily/weekly figure from what I heard. Kiev actually didn't want to use volunteers at all initially, but for a different reason - they are afraid they would turn against them if Kiev doesn't do what people at Maidan demanded. But since these volunteers threatened to go and fight anyway, and since the Ukrainian regular army is in pretty bad state after being robbed for so many years, Kiev made the right choice and allowed them to fight. They have proven their worth since.

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In a Russian brain, putting down an elected government is a problem. You'll ask American brains whether that's a problem for them or not. I don't know. But from that point on, the logic from Moscow is bulletproof.
Again - why? Why would you write this if you have no clue about the Russian brain? Violence, killing and putting down a government/ruler is not a problem for a Russian brain at all - it happened all over the Russian history. What is a problem for a Russian brain is to have a democratic leader and not a authoritarian "strongman" - their brain still demands a "Tsar" (not everyone's of course - there are lots of thinking and very intelligent people in Russia - but unfortunately they are in the minority now). Ukrainians on the other hand don't have this treat - they don't want anyone above them to tell them what to do and decide things for them - therefore Ukraine as a country tends to fall into anarchy with a bad leader.
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  #625  
Old 19.06.2014, 21:32
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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The private militia your refer to are volunteers who get paid .
In other words, I am right. Next.
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  #626  
Old 19.06.2014, 23:20
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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In other words, I am right. Next.
You should have truncated my answer even earlier By the way - this is one of the techniques russian media uses - next time you should insert pictures from Chechnya between my words - and claim they are from Ukraine.
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  #627  
Old 19.06.2014, 23:36
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Exactly how have "things changed"? (Go ahead, "surprise" me! )

Exactly who controls the IMF today who didn't control it fifteen years ago?

Exactly how do you know?

(For the benefit of readers who — unlike marton — are more concerned with facts than obfuscation, it's worthwhile to note that voting power in the IMF is based on a quota system, in which the US has the largest voting block, roughly three times the next highest participant [not to mention US 'allies' who are under various levels of diplomatic pressure to agree with US policies], effectively guaranteeing US control of the IMF's actions. Thus, the IMF and the economies of its client states are harnessed to the yoke of US government's foreign agendas.)
About "Exactly how have "things changed"? (Go ahead, "surprise" me! )"

Well the link you provided showed voting rights in 1999 and was very out of date.
These voting rights were significantly changed in 2008 and following an IMF review last December there will be a vote on another big change of voting rights this year; each change reduces the US voting power.

It is all explained in the IMF web site; see http://www.imf.org/external

The Wikipedia link you quoted mentions the 2008 changes (approved in 2010) but says they are not yet in effect. This is not correct; the changes came into effect on March 3rd, 2011.
They also do not mention the current proposals.

The current proposal is that the USA will have 16% of the votes; the same as the Asia block.
China will be the 3rd largest voting member and Russia will in the top 10. Consequently Russia and Asia together can easily out vote the USA if they choose to.
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  #628  
Old 20.06.2014, 05:59
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Sure thing. I'll actually be visiting Canary Islands once the summer heat goes away. I could hide you in my suitcase - Swiss Air luggage allowances are very generous. But you have to promise that you are not too fat - otherwise I may have to send you to Iraq..
The only time I was on the Canary Islands (Las Palmas) I got a serious cold, and had to cure it the two days after in Marrakech
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  #629  
Old 20.06.2014, 09:17
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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About "Exactly how have "things changed"? (Go ahead, "surprise" me! )"

Well the link you provided showed voting rights in 1999 and was very out of date.
These voting rights were significantly changed in 2008 and following an IMF review last December there will be a vote on another big change of voting rights this year; each change reduces the US voting power.

It is all explained in the IMF web site; see http://www.imf.org/external

The Wikipedia link you quoted mentions the 2008 changes (approved in 2010) but says they are not yet in effect. This is not correct; the changes came into effect on March 3rd, 2011.
They also do not mention the current proposals.

The current proposal is that the USA will have 16% of the votes; the same as the Asia block.
China will be the 3rd largest voting member and Russia will in the top 10. Consequently Russia and Asia together can easily out vote the USA if they choose to.
That's all bullshit — rhetorical smoke and mirrors.

The IMF website itself puts China at 3.81% of the voting power and Russia at 2.39%. The US has 16.75%, and combined with all its NATO allies, a fat 48.9% — and that's not even counting the other (non-NATO) allies the US can count on, giving the US agenda well over 50% of the voting power within the IMF. And that's not likely to change dramatically any time soon.
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  #630  
Old 20.06.2014, 10:33
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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That's all bullshit — rhetorical smoke and mirrors.

The IMF website itself puts China at 3.81% of the voting power and Russia at 2.39%. The US has 16.75%, and combined with all its NATO allies, a fat 48.9% — and that's not even counting the other (non-NATO) allies the US can count on, giving the US agenda well over 50% of the voting power within the IMF. And that's not likely to change dramatically any time soon.

About "And that's not likely to change dramatically any time soon"

It has already changed!
You are still quoting the 1999 numbers! Look at the link you posted and then follow the links in that page to the 2008 changes
Then if you are really interested in the IMF you can search the site for the changes proposed last year to be voted on this year.
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  #631  
Old 20.06.2014, 11:34
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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About "And that's not likely to change dramatically any time soon"

It has already changed!...
So don't be bashful — go ahead and cite the numbers that show the US and its allies (both NATO and non-NATO) don't currently have a combined majority of voting power.

Here are the most current values I find in the IMF website for NATO members only:

Albania.............0.05
Belgium.............1.86
Bulgaria............0.28
Canada..............2.56
Croatia.............0.17
Czech Republic......0.43
Denmark.............0.78
Estonia.............0.07
France..............4.29
Germany.............5.81
Greece..............0.47
Hungary.............0.44
Iceland.............0.08
Italy...............3.16
Latvia..............0.09
Lithuania...........0.10
Luxembourg..........0.20
Netherlands.........2.08
Norway..............0.78
Poland..............0.70
Portugal............0.44
Romania.............0.44
Slovakia............0.20
Slovenia............0.14
Spain...............1.63
Turkey..............0.61
United Kingdom......4.29
United States......16.75
-------------------------
TOTAL (NATO only)..48.90%


And here, a best guess at non-NATO allies plus the total:

Australia...........1.31
Ireland.............0.53
Israel..............0.45
Japan...............6.23
Korea...............1.37
Kuwait..............0.58
Pakistan............0.44
Panama..............0.11
Philippines.........0.43
Qatar...............0.15
Saudi Arabia........2.80
Switzerland.........1.40
UAE.................0.33
-------------------------
TOTAL (non-NATO*)..16.13%
-------------------------
COMBINED TOTAL.....65.03%

* US allies likely to vote with the US agenda

Since you're so convinced the numbers have changed so dramatically, go right ahead and post them!
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  #632  
Old 20.06.2014, 12:48
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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The only time I was on the Canary Islands (Las Palmas) I got a serious cold, and had to cure it the two days after in Marrakech
Yes, it can get quite chilly in the Canaries. We were there last winter, and winters are usually quite mild there, but that time it was a few degrees colder than average both day and night. Many visitors/locals got a cold as houses are not heated there and are built in such a way that it is cooler inside then outside
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  #633  
Old 20.06.2014, 13:55
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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So don't be bashful — go ahead and cite the numbers that show the US and its allies (both NATO and non-NATO) don't currently have a combined majority of voting power.

Here are the most current values I find in the IMF website for NATO members only:

Albania.............0.05
Belgium.............1.86
Bulgaria............0.28
Canada..............2.56
Croatia.............0.17
Czech Republic......0.43
Denmark.............0.78
Estonia.............0.07
France..............4.29
Germany.............5.81
Greece..............0.47
Hungary.............0.44
Iceland.............0.08
Italy...............3.16
Latvia..............0.09
Lithuania...........0.10
Luxembourg..........0.20
Netherlands.........2.08
Norway..............0.78
Poland..............0.70
Portugal............0.44
Romania.............0.44
Slovakia............0.20
Slovenia............0.14
Spain...............1.63
Turkey..............0.61
United Kingdom......4.29
United States......16.75
-------------------------
TOTAL (NATO only)..48.90%


And here, a best guess at non-NATO allies plus the total:

Australia...........1.31
Ireland.............0.53
Israel..............0.45
Japan...............6.23
Korea...............1.37
Kuwait..............0.58
Pakistan............0.44
Panama..............0.11
Philippines.........0.43
Qatar...............0.15
Saudi Arabia........2.80
Switzerland.........1.40
UAE.................0.33
-------------------------
TOTAL (non-NATO*)..16.13%
-------------------------
COMBINED TOTAL.....65.03%

* US allies likely to vote with the US agenda

Since you're so convinced the numbers have changed so dramatically, go right ahead and post them!
Interesting blog about Putin and the Ukraine here

Latest IMF voting proposals are here

I recommend you read the section "Doubling of quotas and major realignment of quota shares", for example, "China will become the 3rd largest member country in the IMF".

As you posted US has circa 16% voting rights in IMF, this does not enable them to lead the IMF.
I do not see any connection between voting by NATO members (a military organisation) and IMF members (a financial organisation). Do you have concrete, unequivocal substantiation for your statements about this connection?
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  #634  
Old 20.06.2014, 14:21
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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...I recommend you read the section "Doubling of quotas and major realignment of quota shares", for example, "China will become the 3rd largest member country in the IMF".

As you posted US has circa 16% voting rights in IMF, this does not enable them to lead the IMF.
I do not see any connection between voting by NATO members (a military organisation) and IMF members (a financial organisation). Do you have concrete, unequivocal substantiation for your statements about this connection?
I recommend you quit stalling and produce evidence that the US and her allies don't maintain a controlling majority vote in the IMF.
  • You claim "It has already changed!" (suggesting that the US, together with her allies, no longer has a controlling voter block in the IMF) — so why won't you document the change?

  • You claim I've cited "very out of date" voting quota statistics — so why won't you cite up-to-date statistics?
If you "don't see any connection" between NATO members and IMF members, I suspect it's because you don't want to. Both NATO and IMF are more aligned with the US government's agenda than anything else, regardless of their alleged functions.
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  #635  
Old 20.06.2014, 14:41
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I recommend you quit stalling and produce evidence that the US and her allies don't maintain a controlling majority vote in the IMF.
  • You claim "It has already changed!" (suggesting that the US, together with her allies, no longer has a controlling voter block in the IMF) — so why won't you document the change?

  • You claim I've cited "very out of date" voting quota statistics — so why won't you cite up-to-date statistics?
If you "don't see any connection" between NATO members and IMF members, I suspect it's because you don't want to. Both NATO and IMF are more aligned with the US government's agenda than anything else, regardless of their alleged functions.
About "produce evidence that the US and her allies don't maintain a controlling majority vote in the IMF."

LOL, you are the person making claims that you cannot prove; that the US controls the IMF.
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  #636  
Old 20.06.2014, 15:22
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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LOL, you are the person making claims that you cannot prove; that the US controls the IMF.
I've proved my claim that the IMF is controlled by the US government. I've shown that the US and her allies hold a majority of voting power in the IMF to prove it. Furthermore, the US is the only country with veto power in the IMF, so even if another majority were to challenge them, the US government would still retain control with the sole veto power.

You, on the other hand, pretend to know that my statistics are out-of-date, but you obviously can't back up your claim with statistics (whether more up-to-date or not) even suggesting that the US and her allies don't control the IMF.

LOL all you want — you don't have a leg to stand on.
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  #637  
Old 20.06.2014, 15:47
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I've proved my claim that the IMF is controlled by the US government. I've shown that the US and her allies hold a majority of voting power in the IMF to prove it. Furthermore, the US is the only country with veto power in the IMF, so even if another majority were to challenge them, the US government would still retain control with the sole veto power.

You, on the other hand, pretend to know that my statistics are out-of-date, but you obviously can't back up your claim with statistics (whether more up-to-date or not) even suggesting that the US and her allies don't control the IMF.

LOL all you want — you don't have a leg to stand on.
Actually Turkey is controlling the IMF, although they only have a .6% vote together with their allies they have nearly 50%

From the IMF web site; you need over 15% votes to veto so they write; "
The U.S. is not the only veto player in the IMF.
The European Union, if it acts together, has a much higher vote than the United States. And so whenever they can agree and speak with one voice, the European Union is a veto player.
The G-24, the developing countries, have a much higher aggregate vote than the United States. If they can agree on an issue and act together, then they're a very important veto player. "
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  #638  
Old 20.06.2014, 18:12
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Actually Turkey is controlling the IMF, although they only have a .6% vote together with their allies they have nearly 50%

From the IMF web site; you need over 15% votes to veto so they write; "
The U.S. is not the only veto player in the IMF.
The European Union, if it acts together, has a much higher vote than the United States. And so whenever they can agree and speak with one voice, the European Union is a veto player.
The G-24, the developing countries, have a much higher aggregate vote than the United States. If they can agree on an issue and act together, then they're a very important veto player. "
If you can prove your point with data you just sling more bullshit.

Maybe you should try explaining all your "knowledge" from "the IMF website" to the Wall Street Journal and the Globe and Mail and Business Week. They've all apparently got it wrong, but surely your wise ass can straighten them out.
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  #639  
Old 20.06.2014, 18:46
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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If you can prove your point with data you just sling more bullshit.

Maybe you should try explaining all your "knowledge" from "the IMF website" to the Wall Street Journal and the Globe and Mail and Business Week. They've all apparently got it wrong, but surely your wise ass can straighten them out.
I cannot help you with these journals. I simply copied a quote from the IMF web site about how these vetos work. If you want to use these journals as your source rather than the IMF themselves that is OK with me.
So far your proof about the US controllin the IMF consists of listing some countries and their voting power but not one piece of evidence that the US took advantage of this, where is the smoking gun?
This is just guesswork not proof.
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  #640  
Old 20.06.2014, 19:04
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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If you can prove your point with data you just sling more bullshit.

Maybe you should try explaining all your "knowledge" from "the IMF website" to the Wall Street Journal and the Globe and Mail and Business Week. They've all apparently got it wrong, but surely your wise ass can straighten them out.

Now I had time to read these links they confirm what I wrote; any countries that can gather 15% votes can veto....
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