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12.06.2022, 20:44
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | And personally I don’t think we will pull the trigger, then what? Europe will be weighed as the toothless tiger it is. | | | | | That's the point, the West will never be the one to pull the trigger first. Equipping the smaller, weaker countries around him, which are NATO members btw is enough. Hitting him in Syria, which has happened btw, US and Russian soldiers have exchanged fire there, would be enough to send a message.
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12.06.2022, 20:44
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | The problem with all the militaristic grrr-woof-woofery is what are you going to when Putin calls your bluff? We are already at the „Yo Mama“ stage. How are you going to project raw power and not be prepared to back it up with war?
And personally I don’t think we will pull the trigger, then what? Europe will be weighed as the toothless tiger it is. | | | | | Cannot see what's wrong with fortifying NATO borders. Whether f---ing around in Syria is helpful, I don't know.
But what is your suggestion?
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12.06.2022, 21:06
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Yes, BUT all of them (UK, Germany, France, Italy) are now aware what threat and danger putin is. Not that my opinion matters, but I'd rather "forgive" them their past sins, but if they relax the pressure on Russia in the near future, this would be unforgivable. One can (should?) give them the benefit of doubt for the past, but from now on they have no excuse. Today's Russia is like cancer, it will spread until checked or will consume everything on it's path. | | | | | Well the problem is few were 'brought to book' in Russia following the collapse of the Soviet Union & the fall of the Berlin Wall, unlike the other end of the scale where plenty were 'brought to book' and hauled before the courts for crimes against humanity and the subjugation of human rights; in the Deutsche Demokratische Republik ( DDR ) after East Germany fell and merged with West Germany following Reunification.
The Stasi and anyone who worked for the Stasi were vilified and became subjects of condemnation & contempt. Unlike the KGB and former officers & members of the KGB, who were beyond censure in Russia and used their exalted positions and as it turns out, stockpiles of cash to 'buy out' or take control of many newly privatised Russian state companies, for their own gain and that of their comrades.
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Surely the time has come for Boris to 'circle the wagons' for a bit of herd immunity ?
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12.06.2022, 21:23
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
Sadly not one size fits all, Syria needs a different solution and in my opinion the west should back the secular Assad regime against the tooth gnashing islamics.
...Which would align us with Russia.
But that is just me.
Imagine if Putin were to say something like...: I dunno! "Hey guys, sorry, twas just a joke, a little Russian jokus, should not have taken it seriously. I have deleted my Facebook account and I´ll be going into exile in a monastry in Tibet by the way!"
What then, will there be a Marschall plan for Russia, how are you going to de-Putinify Russia, it has to be done otherwise Russia will be on the same track as Germany in 1919.
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Back in Bavaria, god´s own belly button.
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12.06.2022, 21:48
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Cannot see what's wrong with fortifying NATO borders. Whether f---ing around in Syria is helpful, I don't know. But what is your suggestion? | | | | | The usual...!
Nuke them.
Bribe them.
Or leave them alone.
No1 will hurt us more than it will hurt them.
No3 is against the Zeitgeist.
No2 it is...
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12.06.2022, 21:51
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | The usual...!
Nuke them.
Bribe them.
Or leave them alone.
No1 will hurt us more than it will hurt them.
No3 is against the Zeitgeist.
No2 it is... | | | | | That's what I thought. So ideally just look the other way, but now that the Russians sit on a fifth of Ukraine, we pay them to stop.
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12.06.2022, 21:56
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Europe will be weighed as the toothless tiger it is. | | | | | Yeah. That's what Putin thought up until about the 27th February this year.
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12.06.2022, 22:10
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | That's what I thought. So ideally just look the other way, but now that the Russians sit on a fifth of Ukraine, we pay them to stop. | | | | | YES, it´s what I have been saying all along.
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12.06.2022, 22:12
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Sadly not one size fits all, Syria needs a different solution and in my opinion the west should back the secular Assad regime against the tooth gnashing islamics.
...Which would align us with Russia.
But that is just me.
Imagine if Putin were to say something like...: I dunno! "Hey guys, sorry, twas just a joke, a little Russian jokus, should not have taken it seriously. I have deleted my Facebook account and I´ll be going into exile in a monastry in Tibet by the way!"
What then, will there be a Marschall plan for Russia, how are you going to de-Putinify Russia, it has to be done otherwise Russia will be on the same track as Germany in 1919. | | | | | Assad? Secular?
The family religion of al-Assad is Shia Islam, more specifically the Alawite sect. Syria's constitution is secular but states that the president must be Muslim.
Last edited by marton; 12.06.2022 at 22:24.
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12.06.2022, 22:27
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Assad? Secular?
The family religion of al-Assad is Shia Islam, more specifically the Alawite sect. Syria's constitution is secular but states that the president must be Muslim. Attachment 143847 | | | | | Your point? He can genuflect to the flying spaghetti monster if he wants, the country for most part is secular.
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12.06.2022, 22:31
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Your point? He can genuflect to the flying spaghetti monster if he wants, the country for most part is secular. | | | | | It's an Arab socialist republic which did some green window-dressing to appeal to the "conservatives".
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12.06.2022, 22:45
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | How do we do it. How do we check Russia?
Russia hasn´t been checked by talking to the Kremlin, Sanctions havn´t brought Russia into line. Supplying arms to the enemy hasn´t brought Russia to the negotiating table. All attempts by the west to "check" Russia have failed.
Actually they seem to be hurting us more than them. How long will people in the west be cool with out of control prices, inflation and the threat of a new covid wave with all the bells and whistles in autumn.
Now it´s a waiting game of who blinks first, who will be the first to give up.. Russia? Ukraine? or the West. | | | | | 100 days of war, 5-6 weeks of sanctions, what do you expect?
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12.06.2022, 23:17
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | 100 days of war, 5-6 weeks of sanctions, what do you expect? | | | | | I expect Somebody in the Kremlin armed with a sliderule to do the math. You can’t tell me that the Russians in charge are so vodka addled that they can no longer do basic calculations.
„Comrades, the West will hit us so and so, worst case SO AND SO, this will cause...“ you get what I mean.
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12.06.2022, 23:23
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Assad? Secular?[/URL]
The family religion of al-Assad is Shia Islam, more specifically the Alawite sect. Syria's constitution is secular but states that the president must be Muslim. | | | | | What a curse for Syrians, this Assad...I just hope that Putin will not transform Ukraine in another Syria. | The following 2 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post: | | 
12.06.2022, 23:29
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | I expect Somebody in the Kremlin armed with a sliderule to do the math. You can’t tell me that the Russians in charge are so vodka addled that they can no longer do basic calculations.
„Comrades, the West will hit us so and so, worst case SO AND SO, this will cause...“ you get what I mean. | | | | | You're assuming smart people could tell the consequences of the decisions to Fidel Castro....errrr Putin.
If you're waiting for a bang, look for a comfy seat. This is the slow withering of a plant with no rain.
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13.06.2022, 03:58
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | I expect Somebody in the Kremlin armed with a sliderule to do the math. You can’t tell me that the Russians in charge are so vodka addled that they can no longer do basic calculations.
„Comrades, the West will hit us so and so, worst case SO AND SO, this will cause...“ you get what I mean. | | | | | There are smart people in Venezuela, North Korea, Iran. And yet, such regimes have a much higher resilience and survival rate than many in the West are willing to recognize. I believe this is why the US has long ago stopped trying to induce regime changes and moved to containment strategies. So if one can't induce regime change in the Kremlin, how can one contain Russia? What is your suggestion?
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13.06.2022, 07:26
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | There are smart people in Venezuela, North Korea, Iran. And yet, such regimes have a much higher resilience and survival rate than many in the West are willing to recognize. I believe this is why the US has long ago stopped trying to induce regime changes and moved to containment strategies. So if one can't induce regime change in the Kremlin, how can one contain Russia? What is your suggestion? | | | | | Well, maybe that train has long left the stable. But instead of crapping on Russia from a great hight after the end of communism, perhaps treating Russia with respect and as equal would have gone a long way.
Perhaps even now there would be a way for dialogue if "The West" were to interact with Russia peacefully instead of regarding them as the enemy. You know, like adults in a civilized society. But that´s not the way we roll is it?
The other way I see is to go all in and start a war with Russia and we would not want that either.
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Back in Bavaria, god´s own belly button.
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13.06.2022, 07:39
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Well, maybe that train has long left the stable. But instead of crapping on Russia from a great hight after the end of communism, perhaps treating Russia with respect and as equal would have gone a long way.
Perhaps even now there would be a way for dialogue if "The West" were to interact with Russia peacefully instead of regarding them as the enemy. You know, like adults in a civilized society. But that´s not the way we roll is it?
The other way I see is to go all in and start a war with Russia and we would not want that either. | | | | | Why did Russia deserve more respect than they had ever granted to its ex-satellites (and I mean after the fall of communism, I don't even mean the period before..), may I ask? On the contrary, Russia was treated with infinitely more respect than its "sister" countries, its politician infinitely less scrutinised, etc etc The West has courted Russia and was happy to buy relatively cheap resources without asking anything in return - such as fair elections and nobody to stay in power longer than 2 mandates.
Is it because of the nuclear weapons? Is this what it takes to be treated with respect? Let's all of us get those damn nukes if this is how we solve conflicts today.
It's enough that countries like North Korea got to have nukes, maybe this should have been the main preoccupation, how to get the nukes out, and I mean everybody here? Anyway, it is a moot point, whether this lack of respect as you call it was the cause of the war or not is not even important anymore.
My feeling is that Putin punishes Ukraine for trying to separate itself from the big Russian world, because they "betrayed"* Russia.
*in Putin's views. So it must be crushed...it's a lot of things mixed with vengeance too.
Last edited by greenmount; 13.06.2022 at 07:56.
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13.06.2022, 07:53
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? | Quote: | |  | | | Perhaps even now there would be a way for dialogue if "The West" were to interact with Russia peacefully instead of regarding them as the enemy. You know, like adults in a civilized society. | | | | | Wait, this is EXACTLY how the west treated Russia ever since 1991. The West was led by Germany's philosophy of trade will bring Russia closer to the western civilization and tame it. In the meantime, Russia has been invading smaller countries and projecting power far away from home. Why do you believe this failed strategy will somehow be successful now?
If anything, I think it will achieve the exact opposite. Treating putin as a "civilized adult" now would only embolden him to do even more damage.
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13.06.2022, 08:04
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| | Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?
I have read that 7 millions of Ukrainians (of which 4 millions have entered Poland*, Poland which is not the richest country in Europe) have left the country in the past 4 months. Less than 4 months people! And 8 more millions of people are displaced within the country i.e. refugees in their own country. And it is not because they were looking for a better life, it was because they wanted to save their lives!
This is Putin's doing, who apparently deserves respect.
*I have edited my post for the sake of accuracy, I don't have the exact number of Ukrainians still living there.
Last edited by greenmount; 13.06.2022 at 08:41.
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