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  #681  
Old 03.07.2014, 10:09
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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He gave me red blobs for telling him off.
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Yeah, I think he gave them to me in the past, too. He is a great guy
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  #682  
Old 03.07.2014, 16:36
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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If you understood logic, you would understand that a negative can't be proven, but a positive can. Your question should therefore be "Where's the unequivocal evidence of Russian aggression towards Ukraine?"
That may be true, but in the larger picture, it's really just semantics, or trolling (I suspect the latter )

But to put it in another way, what is Russia doing to help the situation? Are they locking the border down, or are they turning a blind eye to truckloads of armed men passing thru it? Has Russia put out an arrest warrant for any of the Russians who are claiming to be military commanders operating inside Ukraine (eg. Streklov)? Shouldn't Russia be cooperating with Ukrainian authorities to supress the rebellion?

What of the situation was flipped, what if a bunch of Ukrainians seized territory inside Russia and claimed to be creating an independant territory, would you be supportive of that? When Russia bombed Chechnya to bits for trying to break away, was that right or wrong? What is your opinion about ISIS taking over large chunks of Iraq? Is that a good thing?
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  #683  
Old 03.07.2014, 16:44
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Not a recent photo?
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  #684  
Old 03.07.2014, 17:20
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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...But to put it in another way, what is Russia doing to help the situation?...
Your question suggests Russia has been doing nothing, which is utterly false:
  • Russia has been urging a peaceful solution the whole time. Even after Poroschenko ended the cease-fire, the Russian foreign minister, together with his counterparts from France, Germany and Ukraine are still working out a way to an unconditional and mutually agreed, sustainable ceasefire.
  • Russia has offered to allow both Ukrainian and OSCE monitors at the Russain-Ukrainian border to verify whether your alleged "truckloads of armed men" are really "passing thru it". (Conspicuously, Poroschenko hasn't taken Russia up on this offer.)
  • Russia has allowed over 100,000 Ukrainian refugees to cross the border and receive shelter from their own government's violence.
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...Shouldn't Russia be cooperating with Ukrainian authorities to supress the rebellion?...
Why? I think a better question is why "Ukrainian authorities" haven't even tried dialogue instead of bombing. The "rebels" have legitimate concerns, and they aren't getting anything even close to a hearing from Kiev.

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...what if a bunch of Ukrainians seized territory inside Russia and claimed to be creating an independant territory, would you be supportive of that?...
My position would be the same: A peaceful solution is possible when both sides are willing to work at it — but it starts with genuine dialogue, not the arbitrary bombing of civilian neighborhoods.
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  #685  
Old 03.07.2014, 17:25
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Not a recent photo?
You've still got a question to answer, Mr. Prove-A-Negative:

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So let's cut to the chase: What exactly would constitute (in your opinion) plausible proof that there is no Russian aggression against Ukraine? Be specific — evasive generalities aren't helpful here.

Meanwhile, you — and the rest of your chorus — could help your own cause immensely (and settle the issue once and for all) by providing unequivocal positive proof that there is Russian aggressian against Ukraine.

But you — and the rest of your chorus — haven't, can't and won't.
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  #686  
Old 03.07.2014, 18:22
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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You've still got a question to answer, Mr. Prove-A-Negative:
As I have posted before - I am sure these pro- Russian people get their tanks, heavy artillery and anti-aircraft missiles from the Tooth fairy; there is no possibility that Putin is supplying these
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  #687  
Old 03.07.2014, 19:19
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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As I have posted before - I am sure these pro- Russian people get their tanks, heavy artillery and anti-aircraft missiles from the Tooth fairy; there is no possibility that Putin is supplying these
How about a cogent answer that comports with your assertion about proving a negative?

I'll wait here.

Meanwhile, you — and the rest of your chorus — could help your own cause immensely (and settle the issue once and for all) by providing unequivocal positive proof that there is Russian aggression against Ukraine.

But you — and the rest of your chorus — haven't, can't and won't.
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  #688  
Old 03.07.2014, 21:57
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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My position would be the same: A peaceful solution is possible when both sides are willing to work at it — but it starts with genuine dialogue, not the arbitrary bombing of civilian neighborhoods.
When Chechnya tried to break away from Russia, Putin launched close to a dozen Scud-equivenlant missiles at civilian neighborhoods (hospitals, mosques, etc.) What's your take on that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grozny_...missile_attack
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  #689  
Old 03.07.2014, 22:09
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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How about a cogent answer that comports with your assertion about proving a negative?

I'll wait here.

Meanwhile, you — and the rest of your chorus — could help your own cause immensely (and settle the issue once and for all) by providing unequivocal positive proof that there is Russian aggression against Ukraine.

But you — and the rest of your chorus — haven't, can't and won't.
OK I am open to reasonable arguments.
If Donetsk and Luhansk do not get their tanks, heavy artillery and anti-aircraft missiles from the Tooth fairy and there is no possibility that Putin is supplying these then - from where do they get these weapons?


I attach a map with these 2 areas clearly marked to make it easy. As you see travelling in any direction other than Russia means you have to cross river bridges where someone will notice people smuggling heavy weapons? Plus if you do not go to Russia you have to drag the heavy weapons at least 800 Km.

If you cannot make a reasonable suggestion as to the location of the weapons supplier then the Russia aggression is proven

Forgot to say that I am not in a chorus, I did not want to shave my legs

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  #690  
Old 04.07.2014, 00:58
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Russia has been urging a peaceful solution the whole time. Even after Poroschenko ended the cease-fire, the Russian foreign minister, together with his counterparts from France, Germany and Ukraine are still working out a way to an unconditional and mutually agreed, sustainable ceasefire.
I love the way how this highly aggressive imbecile supplies links from Russia Today (rt.com) to support his arguments

From Wikipedia, first lines from its history:

"The creation of Russia Today was a part of a larger PR effort by the Russian government intended to improve the image of Russia abroad. RT was conceived by former media minister Mikhail Lesin,[10] and Vladimir Putin's press spokesperson Aleksei Gromov."

Ups..
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Old 04.07.2014, 01:04
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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But to put it in another way, what is Russia doing to help the situation? Are they locking the border down, or are they turning a blind eye to truckloads of armed men passing thru it? Has Russia put out an arrest warrant for any of the Russians who are claiming to be military commanders operating inside Ukraine (eg. Streklov)? Shouldn't Russia be cooperating with Ukrainian authorities to supress the rebellion?

What of the situation was flipped, what if a bunch of Ukrainians seized territory inside Russia and claimed to be creating an independant territory, would you be supportive of that? When Russia bombed Chechnya to bits for trying to break away, was that right or wrong? What is your opinion about ISIS taking over large chunks of Iraq? Is that a good thing?
Yep, all valid questions (and the implied answers).
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Old 04.07.2014, 01:27
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Also, for giving me (and others) red blobs on this thread, I just groaned at 10 of your posts that I find insulting, abusive or providing misleading information. Enjoy. Next time - will do 20.
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  #693  
Old 04.07.2014, 08:11
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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When Chechnya tried to break away from Russia, Putin launched close to a dozen Scud-equivenlant missiles at civilian neighborhoods (hospitals, mosques, etc.) What's your take on that?
That was as wrong as what Kiev is doing today. The right thing in both cases is a peaceful, non-violent solution, regardless of what happened 15 years ago. Today Putin is urging a peaceful, non-violent solution, helping victimized refugees and inviting border inspections. Yet you and your pals keep telling us that somehow constitutes "aggression against Ukraine"...
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  #694  
Old 04.07.2014, 10:04
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

I certainly understand the passion in this thread, Ukraine issue is close to my heart as well..

Now, groaning fest here nor blob war, guys, is not going to help the people there at all.

Calm it down, please, all parties.

Last edited by MusicChick; 04.07.2014 at 13:43.
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  #695  
Old 04.07.2014, 10:34
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Forgot to say that I am not in a chorus, I did not want to shave my legs
Ouch, he caught me! I am in a chorus, but you Marton sir, you are not my Dirigentin! She shaves her legs.
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  #696  
Old 04.07.2014, 12:07
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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That was as wrong as what Kiev is doing today. The right thing in both cases is a peaceful, non-violent solution, regardless of what happened 15 years ago.
I agree, non-violent discussions and negotiations are the way to go. Ukraine is a democratic country. So why did the pro-Russian rebels need to take up arms and take over buildings with force?To execute policemen in the streets who didn't join them? To kill Ukrainian border guards for doing their jobs? Shouldn't the pro-Russian rebels use civilized political ways?
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Old 04.07.2014, 13:39
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Anybody taking Russia's gov. words at face value I recommend reading the first chapter of "Sainte Russie" by Alain Besancon titled "Le Mensonge".
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  #698  
Old 04.07.2014, 13:53
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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The right thing in both cases is a peaceful, non-violent solution, regardless of what happened 15 years ago.
I agree - let us ignore the past and ignore what happened 15 years ago.


So why did you drag up what happened 60 years ago

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the place was arbitrarily "given" by the Soviets to Ukraine just 60 years ago, before which it had long belonged to Russia.
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Old 04.07.2014, 14:57
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Not totally OT. Anyways,
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Russian President Vladimir Putin has called for more patriotic education for his country's youth in order to protect them from foreign influences in what he views as a global ideological battle.
http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/vl...-russia-552673
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  #700  
Old 04.07.2014, 18:36
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Also not too OT: Putin is raising military spending to $600 billion in the next 6 years:

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/738863

I thought Putin was against military actions and in favor of political dialog recently? Why the need for such massive military spending? Hmmm...
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