World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? - Page 350

Axa · #**6981** 14.06.2022, 10:43

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Fault (Russia's, the west's or anybody else's) is indeed a useless, and probably counterproductive, term in this context. Countries don't have friends, they have interests and (temporary) allies (which may differ depending on the issue). Russia has certain interests, as does Ukraine, the rest of Europe and the US. This couldn't be highlighted better than by the Rainer's zerohedge article. So far Russia's have been completely ignored, the result is this war.

So, letting Russians invest in Western Europe (media, sports teams, banks, famous natural gas pipelines), use Switzerland as safe box, take hold of Cyprus....all that is completely ignoring Russia?

I guess Nord Stream 1 and 2 are just another display of how Russian interests were ignored in the last 20-30 years

marton · #**6982** 14.06.2022, 11:31

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Fault (Russia's, the west's or anybody else's) is indeed a useless, and probably counterproductive, term in this context. Countries don't have friends, they have interests and (temporary) allies (which may differ depending on the issue). Russia has certain interests, as does Ukraine, the rest of Europe and the US. This couldn't be highlighted better than by the Rainer's zerohedge article. So far Russia's have been completely ignored, the result is this war. The point is to find some version of common ground for the adversaries (like guaranteeing that Ukraine won't join Nato, but that bargaining chip has lost its value by now). Biden showed zero interest in that direction with his "Putin is a killer" and "Russia is not a superpower", and the empty encouragements in Zelinsky's directin, it left war as the only option once the problem was big enough for Russia. The lack of finding such common ground will be a Ukraine that's economically destroyed and completely depending on the west. The US won't mind at all, more influence for them. Russia is closing in again on Charkiv, forbidding Ukraine from moving troops towards the Donbas for reinforcement. At the same time Russia keeps advancing in the Donbas, slowly but certainly, the completion of the tongs behind Lysychansk and Sevierodonetsk appears to be only a matter of time - and finally their conquest. As it looks now the only question is, does Putin get the entire Donbas as one big heap of rubble or will parts of it still stand, and how many more lives this will cost on both sides. And what are the conditions of the outcome, it doesn't look like Ukraine will have too many bargaining chips left, its economy will be destroyed either way.

Due to resource shortages on both sides this war is like a balloon, it gets pushed in at one point due to the concentration of resources and so gets pushed out elsewhere due to resources having been diverted elsewhere

Around the Kherson area, the Ukrainians claim to have liberated Tavriyske, and on the coast west of Kherson seem to have reached Oleksandrivka which would make them a threat to shipping leaving Kherson.

greenmount · #**6983** 14.06.2022, 12:42

	Quote:	slammer
	Or offer a 150 year lease on the Donbas. Something like that, Russia is preparing for a long war but this war can’t go on for longer without nato involvements. So that’s my Idea, what do you think?

They don't want only Donbas, rest assured. (and Donbas too should agree, otherwise we're repeating mistakes of the past)

They didn't start this war to gain territories inhabited by ethnic Russians, who allegedly were being oppressed there. They are fighting for their status as a world super-power and for their sphere of influence. They are rebuilding their empire or at least this is what Putin et co. hopes for. And you come here as if they were some weaker state and propose them a....lease. Ha! (that could be a solution for British colonies, not in Eastern Europe and especially not in Russia)
Anyways, I agree they are prepared for a long war.....and this is really, really bad.

Reb77Br · #**6984** 14.06.2022, 12:53

Ominous words from the head of the State Duma and Dmitri Medvedev.

Russia warns Europe will 'disappear' in a nuclear apocalypse if the West gives Ukraine missiles

Poland's ex-foreign minister Radoslaw Sikorski said the West could arm Ukraine
He said Russian actions justify the delivery of nuclear weapons to Kyiv
Russia's Viacheslav Volodin [head of the State Duma] said it would lead to the destruction of Europe

	Quote:
	The latest threat from Volodin comes after one of Vladimir Putin's key allies warned that the 'Horsemen of the Apocalypse are on their way'. Dmitry Medvedev, the former president of Russia, warned Moscow would attack Western cities if Ukraine uses missiles provided by the US. The Kremlin insider, 56, currently serves as deputy head of Russia's national security council and acted as president 2008 to 2012 while Putin was term-limited, although he remained under his influence. He wrote last week: 'I am often asked why my Telegram posts are so harsh. The answer is I hate them. They are b*****ds and degenerates. 'They want death for Russia. And while I'm alive, I will do everything to make them disappear.' The 'they' Medvedev is referring to is understood to mean Ukraine and its allies. Days earlier he said Moscow would escalate their war on the West if US-supplied missiles are used against Russian forces, saying: 'The horsemen of the Apocalypse are already on their way.' Medvedev, who was previously seen as a moderniser and a more liberal figurehead for Russia, has also accused Ukraine of being led by drugged-up Nazis. Last month, he warned military support for Ukraine risks sparking nuclear war with Russia.

Axa · #**6985** 14.06.2022, 13:03

	Quote:	Reb77Br
	Ominous words from the head of the State Duma and Dmitri Medvedev.

Hahahahahaha, since when the Duma has a say on decisions?

Phil_MCR · #**6986** 14.06.2022, 13:09

We can be glad that Putin and not Medvedev is in charge.

slammer · #**6987** 14.06.2022, 14:40

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	We can be glad that Putin and not Medvedev is in charge.

Sometime ago I mentioned that we should be thankful that Putin is in charge. I would call him a moderate if you read the biographies of some of the kremlin hawks a-waiting in the wings

MidfieldGeneral · #**6988** 14.06.2022, 14:53

maybe I missed this but did Medvedev invade Ukraine?

Axa · #**6989** 14.06.2022, 15:01

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	We can be glad that Putin and not Medvedev is in charge.

	Quote:	slammer
	Sometime ago I mentioned that we should be thankful that Putin is in charge. I would call him a moderate if you read the biographies of some of the kremlin hawks a-waiting in the wings

The leader show us the way
A wise leader leads everyone
Beloved Putin leads us!
He gave us happiness and freedom!
Great, wise leader of the people!
You serve as an example to the whole earth!

robBob · #**6990** 14.06.2022, 15:28

	Quote:	Axa
	The leader show us the way A wise leader leads everyone Beloved Putin leads us! He gave us happiness and freedom! Great, wise leader of the people! You serve as an example to the whole earth!

Yes! No one knows what it's like....
https://youtu.be/dMrImMedYRo

komsomolez · #**6991** 14.06.2022, 19:02

Interesting take from Gen Hertling on equipping the Ukrainian army, including the "we need 1000 howitzer" request.

https://twitter.com/MarkHertling/sta...sn8QLQnHA&s=19

slammer · #**6992** 14.06.2022, 19:52

	Quote:	komsomolez
	Interesting take from Gen Hertling on equipping the Ukrainian army, including the "we need 1000 howitzer" request. https://twitter.com/MarkHertling/sta...sn8QLQnHA&s=19

It seems like this war is getting back to basics. Post WW1 armies tended to be mobile, this war is shaping up to be static like it was on the west front in WW1 where the stalemate was kept up by throwing masses of men and material into the bloodpump.

marton · #**6993** 15.06.2022, 00:20

Gazprom PJSC said earlier today it was reducing flows through Nord Stream by 40% due to technical issues at a compressor station serving as the link’s entry point on the Baltic coast. The Russian gas giant blamed the German company, saying it had failed to return pumping units in time from repairs.

The delay is due to sanctions so may not be fixed quickly.

Due to a fire, the Texas gas export terminal is also offline.

If you thought gas prices were high yesterday?.....

slammer · #**6994** 15.06.2022, 10:15

	Quote:	marton
	Gazprom PJSC said earlier today it was reducing flows through Nord Stream by 40% due to technical issues at a compressor station serving as the link’s entry point on the Baltic coast. The Russian gas giant blamed the German company, saying it had failed to return pumping units in time from repairs. The delay is due to sanctions so may not be fixed quickly. Due to a fire, the Texas gas export terminal is also offline. If you thought gas prices were high yesterday?.....

Gazprom is waiting for a compressor from Siemens, they say that the device is in Canada, but due to sanctions it can not be delivered.
Like imperial stormtroopers these sanctions keep missing the target.

arz · #**6995** 15.06.2022, 11:12

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	We can be glad that Putin and not Medvedev is in charge.

It's just an old game of good and evil cop. Well, in evil and very evil

marton · #**6996** 15.06.2022, 12:23

	Quote:	slammer
	Gazprom is waiting for a compressor from Siemens, they say that the device is in Canada, but due to sanctions it can not be delivered. Like imperial stormtroopers these sanctions keep missing the target.

Driving down Gazprom revenues is missing the target?

Also pressures the European nations impacted to get moving on alternatives.

komsomolez · #**6997** 15.06.2022, 12:40

	Quote:	marton
	Driving down Gazprom revenues is missing the target? Also pressures the European nations impacted to get moving on alternatives.

Prices jumped 20% with this and the extended Freeport FM news. So impact on GZP revenues will be very mild, at least short to mid term.

rainer_d · #**6998** 15.06.2022, 12:50

Pope's also got a take on this:

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/n...cattolica.html

Maybe he, too, reads Zerohedge in the morning?
;-)

Next thing, they'll disable his Twitter account and cancel him.

Axa · #**6999** 15.06.2022, 12:51

	Quote:	marton
	Driving down Gazprom revenues is missing the target? Also pressures the European nations impacted to get moving on alternatives.

Indeed, regulated capitalism and its mechanical/economic incentives that motivate people to work hard, increase efficiency and develop new things. Focusing only on norms is a very "socialist economy" thing.

Back to fuel prices, I filled up the car yesterday. Bill was about 115 CHF when the average of last years was around 80 CHF, minimum ~60 CHF during covid times. I was told here on EF that gasoline prices have no effect on the habits of drivers in Switzerland. I look forward to buy 98 gasoline at 5 CHF/liter to verify if this is true or not. Of course, also to enjoy low traffic on roads.

Phil_MCR · #**7000** 15.06.2022, 13:03

	Quote:	Axa
	Indeed, regulated capitalism and its mechanical/economic incentives that motivate people to work hard, increase efficiency and develop new things. Focusing only on norms is a very "socialist economy" thing. Back to fuel prices, I filled up the car yesterday. Bill was about 115 CHF when the average of last years was around 80 CHF, minimum ~60 CHF during covid times. I was told here on EF that gasoline prices have no effect on the habits of drivers in Switzerland. I look forward to buy 98 gasoline at 5 CHF/liter to verify if this is true or not. Of course, also to enjoy low traffic on roads.

i guess it is largely true. things like heating oil and driving are often essential. at the margins you can cut back here and there, but people need to stay warm. they need to get to work. maybe if it gets really bad, people will try to substitute (train, bike) but it might not be practical for many people.