World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? - Page 401

kiwiguy08 · #**8001** 13.10.2022, 18:22

	Quote:	ShirleyNot
	Not being judgmental but, as a mum of teens, I've eye-rolled at it the same kind of thing before...

Well here I am being judgmental as I had you pegged as a bored soccer mom housewife all along

Anyways we all should get back on topic…..

Vushka’s point about Sholz’s statement.

-anyone else feel a bit nervous about Germany asserting itself on the international stage? They have been really good in the past 70 years about promoting peace, focusing on their economy and building partnerships with their neighbors. I have some doubt that they can really do so without stepping on the feet of their allies.

LtSoftDrink · #**8002** 13.10.2022, 18:25

	Quote:	ShirleyNot
	I'm not sure that's the obvious conclusion. Have to say it does come across a bit attention-seeker. If you were going for the "Ooh, look how edgy I am, please will someone ask me about it" vibe, you nailed it. Not being judgmental but, as a mum of teens, I've eye-rolled at it the same kind of thing before...

As a mum of teens, you should know that “attention seeking” isn’t a very innovative accusation - few are the posters (w/o tedious history). who admit they’re here for the money….
So while I personally don’t think the invasion was a good idea of the Russians and I don’t wish them well, I fail to applaud each and every instance of “support” for the Ukraine - critique of a “funny” avatar meme included

ShirleyNot · #**8003** 13.10.2022, 19:07

	Quote:	kiwiguy08
	Well here I am being judgmental as I had you pegged as a bored soccer mom housewife all along.

Certainly feels like that sometimes with my team. Luckily I don't have to take their suits and ties home to wash after a match.

	Quote:	LtSoftDrink
	As a mum of teens, you should know that “attention seeking” isn’t a very innovative accusation - few are the posters (w/o tedious history). who admit they’re here for the money….

There is paid content here??

	Quote:	LtSoftDrink
	So while I personally don’t think the invasion was a good idea of the Russians and I don’t wish them well, I fail to applaud each and every instance of “support” for the Ukraine - critique of a “funny” avatar meme included

Well I don't think anyone "applauds every instance of support" do they? By the same token, there's no harm in a show of solidarity, is there? Must be fairly grim for the average Ukrainian right now. A glimmer of support from the outside world might keep the hope alive that they aren't totally alone in this. Empathy is what makes us human.

kiwiguy08 · #**8004** 13.10.2022, 21:32

It is possible to have empathy for Ukranians who are suffering and still be interested in your own well being as that of your family. Besides the nightmare scenario of supporting UA up to a nuclear holocaust, there is the less dramatic but still unsettling of this causing massive economic damage to you or people you care about, massive unrest in YOUR country and lack of basic needs in the winter time.

Its just realism and understanding that not everything is a black and white choice. Russia being the aggressor does not make Ukraine a saint in the world. They have been a massively corrupt country for decades who are asking for our future generations to come and die for UKRAINE

ShirleyNot · #**8005** 13.10.2022, 22:27

	Quote:	kiwiguy08
	It is possible to have empathy for Ukranians who are suffering and still be interested in your own well being as that of your family. Besides the nightmare scenario of supporting UA up to a nuclear holocaust, there is the less dramatic but still unsettling of this causing massive economic damage to you or people you care about, massive unrest in YOUR country and lack of basic needs in the winter time. Its just realism and understanding that not everything is a black and white choice. Russia being the aggressor does not make Ukraine a saint in the world. They have been a massively corrupt country for decades who are asking for our future generations to come and die for UKRAINE

You are defending a point of view that literally nobody was disputing.

Tom1234 · #**8006** 13.10.2022, 23:38

	Quote:	kiwiguy08
	Its just realism and understanding that not everything is a black and white choice. Russia being the aggressor does not make Ukraine a saint in the world. They have been a massively corrupt country for decades who are asking for our future generations to come and die for UKRAINE

I thought they were asking for weapons, munitions, transport and training and not for boots on the ground?

Excad · #**8007** 14.10.2022, 00:32

	Quote:	kiwiguy08
	I won't bother to explain to you. Just the way you formulate the question/statement it is obvious that any answer except "I am a paid agent of the Kremlin or the FSB" will not be acceptable to you

Then only situation when I allow myself to think that someone is a troll is exactly the current one - when I ask a simple question that try to get to the core of the conversation and you avoid answering.

I have no intention of making endless quarrels, just want to try to understand your side.
Simply and honestly answering what lies in your heart could get us there - but do you have a will for that?

marton · #**8008** 14.10.2022, 00:38

	Quote:	kiwiguy08
	It is possible to have empathy for Ukranians who are suffering and still be interested in your own well being as that of your family. Besides the nightmare scenario of supporting UA up to a nuclear holocaust, there is the less dramatic but still unsettling of this causing massive economic damage to you or people you care about, massive unrest in YOUR country and lack of basic needs in the winter time. Its just realism and understanding that not everything is a black and white choice. Russia being the aggressor does not make Ukraine a saint in the world. They have been a massively corrupt country for decades who are asking for our future generations to come and die for UKRAINE

No, it does not make Ukraine a saint but a victim of another massively corrupt country.

BTW

	Quote:
	The penny stock that represents the smoldering remains of the bankrupt Blockbuster Video empire surged more than 700% on Tuesday.

Apparently due to forecast income from legal claims against unauthorised use of their trademark.

kiwiguy08 · #**8009** 14.10.2022, 07:08

	Quote:	Tom1234
	I thought they were asking for weapons, munitions, transport and training and not for boots on the ground?

….and a no-fly zone. Who did you think was going to enforce this no-fly zone? And what did you think was going to happen after some pilots were shot down?

kiwiguy08 · #**8010** 14.10.2022, 09:19

	Quote:	nejc
	You really do not have a clue about Serbia and president Vucic situation. He is typical populist politician whose power is based on rallying nationalistic pride in people to forget that they are living in a failed state. This nationalism is riding on the hate of NATO and irrational love of Russia. Sadly Serbians never managed to accept their part of responsibility for the wars in the Yugoslavia.* On the other side, Serbia is very much dependant on EU. In everything. EU can end Vucic rule in a month, with some easy sanctions, like closing EU market for Serbian workers or whatever. So what is Vucic doing, is trying to keep his head above the water, which is harder and harder each week. One must be really ignorant to call this "playing the gusle" *as someone who had seen the rise of nationalism in Yugoslavia I see so many parallels between Serbia in 90's and today Russia, that it just make me sick of anxiety. Because as I observed, once such a movement really gets to start, it goes on and on, until it burns all its internal energy (and that means a lot of people). Serbia, after each defeat, just found a new, smaller enemy, and brutalized it until the next defeat. And so on, till the infamous NATO's bombing.

Sorry, I know more than you think. You might just be looking at this through checkerboard colored glasses

vushka · #**8011** 14.10.2022, 09:35

	Quote:	ShirleyNot
	Well I don't think anyone "applauds every instance of support" do they? By the same token, there's no harm in a show of solidarity, is there? Must be fairly grim for the average Ukrainian right now. A glimmer of support from the outside world might keep the hope alive that they aren't totally alone in this. Empathy is what makes us human.

i have a sneaking suspicion that many people who put up ukraine flags do it more to virtue signal than to actually show solidarität with ukraine!

greenmount · #**8012** 14.10.2022, 10:42

	Quote:	kiwiguy08
	Sorry, I know more than you think. You might just be looking at this through checkerboard colored glasses

Ohh, I am sure you think you know more than anyone else who's actually been there at the time.....you've probably been there too? Then say so!

	Quote:	LtSoftDrink
	So while I personally don’t think the invasion was a good idea of the Russians and I don’t wish them well, I fail to applaud each and every instance of “support” for the Ukraine - critique of a “funny” avatar meme included

Well good for you, sir! Why should anyone here care?

Tom1234 · #**8013** 14.10.2022, 11:00

	Quote:	kiwiguy08
	….and a no-fly zone. Who did you think was going to enforce this no-fly zone? And what did you think was going to happen after some pilots were shot down?

You're right. I had forgotten about that.

It seems like such a long time ago that the idea of no-fly zone was instantly rejected as unworkable.

ShirleyNot · #**8014** 14.10.2022, 11:11

	Quote:	vushka
	i have a sneaking suspicion that many people who put up ukraine flags do it more to virtue signal than to actually show solidarität with ukraine!

Doesn't that say more about you than anything else? The world has enough people boldly claiming to know what everyone else thinks. Perhaps if people just stayed in their lane and maybe were a bit more honest with themselves, it would filter up the chain and we'd avoid much of the current crop of moronic world leaders emboldened by the "I have a suspicion..." approach.

Let's assume you are correct and "many" people are putting up flags for selfish reasons. Why do you care? Would you prefer that they put up a Russian flag as well to show impartiality? Ignore the whole situation? Adopt the vague "I know more than you think I do..." shutdown?

greenmount · #**8015** 14.10.2022, 11:16

	Quote:	ShirleyNot
	Doesn't that say more about you than anything else? The world has enough people boldly claiming to know what everyone else thinks. Perhaps if people just stayed in their lane and maybe were a bit more honest with themselves, it would filter up the chain and we'd avoid much of the current crop of moronic world leaders emboldened by the "I have a suspicion..." approach. Let's assume you are correct and "many" people are putting up flags for selfish reasons. Why do you care? Would you prefer that they put up a Russian flag as well to show impartiality? Ignore the whole situation? Adopt the vague "I know more than you think I do..." shutdown?

As someone who has relatives living in Ukraine and knows nobody is a "saint" (apropos of Ukraine), I think I'm simply impotent in helping Ukrainians to put an end to this war. But I care, and I don't give a ing shit on trolls who think they know better.

Kiwi, vushka, all the others....are just pathetic trolls. There are a couple of decent folks from Ru on this forum and they never defended Putin's actions like a few characters here.
The more attention we give them, the more this forum will sink to their level.

Axa · #**8016** 14.10.2022, 12:20

	Quote:	kiwiguy08
	Well here I am being judgmental as I had you pegged as a bored soccer mom housewife all along

It's football

Back to Ukraine, people around the world are sending uniforms, food and weapons. Nothing sentimental like future generations or whatever. About hardware...

	Quote:
	France delivered rocket launchers to Ukraine France has delivered unit rocket launchers (LRU) to Ukraine, assures Le Monde an official source wishing to remain anonymous, confirming the hypothesis advanced Monday, October 10 by the specialized letter Intelligence online. The number of units delivered was not given but some sources mention the figure of three. Capable of striking at a distance of 70 kilometers with an accuracy of a few meters, the LRU is a ground-to-ground system similar to the M142 HIMARS multiple rocket launcher, 20 of which the United States delivered to the kyiv armed forces, which intensive use since this summer to hit Russian logistics depots and command centers behind the front. The French Army is officially equipped with 13 LRUs, which are attached to the 1st Artillery Regiment of Belfort, located in Bourogne. But only 8 of them would be operational, according to the senator (LR) of the Territory of Belfort Cédric Perrin, who was moved on October 12 on Twitter. Asked, the army did not wish to comment on this assertion.

https://www.lemonde.fr/international...5746_3210.html

And air defense:

	Quote:
	PARIS, Oct 12 (Reuters) - France will deliver radar and air defence systems to Ukraine in the coming weeks, in particular to help Ukraine protest itself from drone and missile attacks, French President Emmanuel Macron said on Wednesday.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...on-2022-10-12/

LtSoftDrink · #**8017** 14.10.2022, 13:56

	Quote:	greenmount
	Well good for you, sir! Why should anyone here* care?*

Wouldn’t go as far to assume that you or other quite tedious people (here, there, anywhere) really care - so sorry, can’t answer your “question”

greenmount · #**8018** 14.10.2022, 14:07

	Quote:	LtSoftDrink
	Wouldn’t go as far to assume that you or other quite tedious people (here, there, anywhere) really care - so sorry, can’t answer your “question”

From tedious people like yourself that comes across rather hypocritical. But I wouldn't expect you to even see it that way. So keep going, glad you've established on which position you're playing the game here.

Now if you excuse me, I'll let you spoil other people with your astute observations. I would never deprive anyone of such objective and genuine insights.

greenmount · #**8019** 14.10.2022, 14:58

	Quote:	Axa
	It's football Back to Ukraine, people around the world are sending uniforms, food and weapons. Nothing sentimental like future generations or whatever. About hardware... https://www.lemonde.fr/international...5746_3210.html And air defense: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...on-2022-10-12/

So the war will continue...It's preferable to a shameful peace in the Second World War style. It's interesting that Putin and the clique (plus all these Kremlin trolls...

) started to talk about peace........but a "peace" under the table, between the big dogs like in "good old times".
Back then it brought Stalinism in all its horror and the lesser part of Europe doesn't want this specific history to repeat itself. I'm proud of the West finally understanding this is beyond their immediate interests and comfort. Yes, we do have some (lots) of useful idiots in the West but things have changed a lot since the previous conflagration.

marton · #**8020** 14.10.2022, 16:08

Russian media reported official statements that five mobilized men from Chelyabinsk have already died in combat in Ukraine just three weeks after President Vladimir Putin’s declaration of partial mobilization on September 21, probably only the tip of the iceberg. Incidentally confirming that at least some of the mobilized are being sent to the front without adequate training.

It is reported relatives found half of the 15th Regiment recently mobilized personnel from the Moscow region wounded in a Belgorod Oblast hospital after the unit got caught in heavy artillery fire when attempting to reach the Svatove frontline.

Russian occupation officials called for the evacuation of civilians from occupied Kherson Oblast which likely means they fear they will lose that territory.

Geolocated video footage posted on October 13 shows Ukrainian forces capturing Russian troops who voluntarily surrendered near the N26 highway in Krokhmalne, about 20km northwest of Svatove.