World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine? - Page 402

marton · #**8021** 14.10.2022, 17:02

As I suspected and posted

"Musk’s SpaceX says it can no longer pay for critical satellite services in Ukraine, asks Pentagon to pick up the tab"

From the link "Sources familiar with the [Starlink] outages said they suddenly affected the entire frontline as it stood on September 30.
“That has affected every effort of the Ukrainians to push past that front,” said one person familiar with the outages who spoke to CNN on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive conversations.
“Starlink is the main way units on the battlefield have to communicate.”

I assume Musk is aware of the attack that killed Daria Dugina.

Chuff · #**8022** 14.10.2022, 17:10

	Quote:	marton
	I assume Musk is aware of the attack that killed Daria Dugina.

Musk is a mentally unstable guy with a fragile ego that can't be relied upon to behave consistently and rationally, which is probably why he has such sympathies for Putin.

Phil_MCR · #**8023** 14.10.2022, 17:41

	Quote:	marton
	As I suspected and posted "Musk’s SpaceX says it can no longer pay for critical satellite services in Ukraine, asks Pentagon to pick up the tab" From the link "Sources familiar with the [Starlink] outages said they suddenly affected the entire frontline as it stood on September 30. “That has affected every effort of the Ukrainians to push past that front,” said one person familiar with the outages who spoke to CNN on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive conversations. “Starlink is the main way units on the battlefield have to communicate.” I assume Musk is aware of the attack that killed Daria Dugina.

From the article: "Musk on Friday said that in asking the Pentagon to pick up the bill for Starlink in Ukraine, he was following the advice of a Ukrainian diplomat who responded to Musk’s Ukraine peace plan earlier this month, before the letter was sent to the Pentagon, with: “F*** off.”

Ukraine’s ambassador to Germany, Andrij Melnyk, responded earlier this month to Musk’s claimed peace plan for Russia’s Ukraine war by saying: “F*** off is my very diplomatic reply to you @elonmusk.”"

It was a very business savvy plan: provide Starlink services, have them integrated and essential to the Ukraine war effort and then ask for a slice of the billions in funding. Hard to say no to that now.

Urs Max · #**8024** 14.10.2022, 22:41

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	It was a very business savvy plan: provide Starlink services, have them integrated and essential to the Ukraine war effort and then ask for a slice of the billions in funding. Hard to say no to that now.

Would he suggest peace negotiations if profit were his motif?
Peace would cost him a good many of the subscriptions (at least a massive reduction in traffic volume).

Phil_MCR · #**8025** 14.10.2022, 22:51

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Would he suggest peace negotiations if profit were his motif? Peace would cost him a good many of the subscriptions (at least a massive reduction in traffic volume).

I think there are several motives: there's the moral imperitive to support, the technical benefit of stress-testing the network in a hostile environment, the PR benefit, the financial benefit.

Of course, afterwards, peace is also good for business. Plus, Musk also voiced self-preservation: nuclear escalation would be bad.

Urs Max · #**8026** 14.10.2022, 23:32

The bridge is gonna be repaired by July 2023, says the BBC.

According to Tagi, road and bridge are mostly closed. It looks like one rail and one road lane are usable with caution, trucks are waiting days to cross on the road. See their description below (translations by deepl).

On another note, the agreement on grain exports runs out soon. Russia is discontent with the situation because Russian exports, including fertilisers, face hurdles that prevent them getting sold. Apparently the UN suggests to broaden the deal and extend it for one more year, to enable deals like the one where US company Trammo buys agricultural chemicals from the Russian Ukralchem and exports them via the Yuzne/Jusschni sea port 30-40km east of Odessa. Of course it wouldn't help if UA was indeed behind this blast, or if the current exports (the ships must be empty on their way to UA) were abused for weapons transports.

	Quote:
	The tracks on which the burnt-out tanker wagons were standing are badly deformed, and trains cannot yet run here again. On the adjacent track, too, hardly any trains can run at the moment - and if they do, then only much more slowly than usual. On the remaining lane of the motorway, there are also hardly any vehicles on the road at the moment. Pictures show that this lane has also been badly affected. The bridge bearings of the lane, whose neighbouring lane fell into the water, show cracks, and apparently the lane slab is no longer exactly in the right place. Normal operation of the lane thus seems impossible. Nothing is known about further structural damage to the bridge. However, in view of the explosion and the tanker cars that burned for hours, it can be assumed that longer-term investigations, possibly also repairs, will be necessary until the parts of the bridge that have not collapsed can be used again without danger. But Moscow does not really have time. The supply situation for Russian troops in southern Ukraine is devastating. The logistics are completely geared to the bridge; tanks and other heavy equipment, but above all fuel and ammunition, were brought in via it. Without this fully functional supply route, the situation of the Russian forces in Kherson oblast is becoming increasingly precarious. And the offensive of the Ukrainian troops is not yet over.

Here's a picture of the damage where the fuel tanks burned.

marton · #**8027** 15.10.2022, 00:58

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	From the article: "Musk on Friday said that in asking the Pentagon to pick up the bill for Starlink in Ukraine, he was following the advice of a Ukrainian diplomat who responded to Musk’s Ukraine peace plan earlier this month, before the letter was sent to the Pentagon, with: “F* off.” Ukraine’s ambassador to Germany, Andrij Melnyk, responded earlier this month to Musk’s claimed peace plan for Russia’s Ukraine war by saying: “F* off is my very diplomatic reply to you @elonmusk.”" It was a very business savvy plan: provide Starlink services, have them integrated and essential to the Ukraine war effort and then ask for a slice of the billions in funding. Hard to say no to that now.

Mostly agree with what you posted, I know what Musk said about the “F*** off" as his reason but that tweet was on 3rd October when according to your link the letter was sent to the Pentagon last month, of course, Musk only has a distant relationship to the truth.
It is even possible the Ukraine ambassador knew about Musk's letter before he wrote the “F*** off" tweet, I am sure the Pentagon wants to share the cost with Ukraine.

Elon Musk is under a federal investigation related to his $44 billion takeover deal for Twitter. The news came from a Twitter court filing made public on Thursday about the latest in ongoing legal disputes between the billionaire and the social network.

Twitter - which sued Musk in July to force him to close the deal - said lawyers for the Tesla CEO had claimed "investigative privilege" when refusing to hand over documents it wanted.

Chuff · #**8028** 15.10.2022, 07:28

	Quote:	MidfieldGeneral
	© the worlds worst amateur psychiatrist

Tell me why what I wrote in those quotes isn't true, because I can give you solid reasons why they are based on tangible evidence. Vushka is self-explanatory and his many, many poisonous posts are recorded for all to see. Musk has engaged in a catalogue of highly erratic and highly compulsive and negative behaviour over the last years which has all been covered by the media in great detail and is usually recorded on social media for all to see.

In this case I am very sure my "worlds worst amateur pschologist" assessments match with the evidence.

greenmount · #**8029** 15.10.2022, 09:06

	Quote:	marton
	Mostly agree with what you posted, I know what Musk said about the “F* off" as his reason but that tweet was on 3rd October when according to your link the letter was sent to the Pentagon last month, of course, Musk only has a distant relationship to the truth. It is even possible the Ukraine ambassador knew about Musk's letter before he wrote the “F* off" tweet, I am sure the Pentagon wants to share the cost with Ukraine. Elon Musk is under a federal investigation related to his $44 billion takeover deal for Twitter. The news came from a Twitter court filing made public on Thursday about the latest in ongoing legal disputes between the billionaire and the social network. Twitter - which sued Musk in July to force him to close the deal - said lawyers for the Tesla CEO had claimed "investigative privilege" when refusing to hand over documents it wanted.

He has asked his followers to vote on ways to resolve the Ukraine war. (lol)

	Quote:
	The suggestions included a proposal to hold votes in parts of Ukraine occupied by Russia that the Kremlin says it has annexed. His comments were welcomed by Moscow. The multi-billionaire said: "Russia leaves if that is will of the people." President Putin has already declared four Ukrainian regions to be part of Russia, following so-called referendums denounced as fraudulent by Kyiv and its Western allies. Russia does not fully control any of the four regions. Mr Musk also suggested the world should "formally" recognise Crimea - illegally annexed by Moscow in 2014 - as part of Russia.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63225781
It looks like he believes he can actually end this conflict like in some sort of video game...either that sort of narcissism or he would make a very good troll on EF..

But yeah, he might be a CEO but he has shareholders he must please....after all sharing the costs with Ukraine is probably legit.

marton · #**8030** 15.10.2022, 10:08

	Quote:	greenmount
	He has asked his followers to vote on ways to resolve the Ukraine war. (lol) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63225781 It looks like he believes he can actually end this conflict like in some sort of video game...either that sort of narcissism or he would make a very good troll on EF.. But yeah, he might be a CEO but he has shareholders he must please....after all sharing the costs with Ukraine is probably legit.

Seems he is sh#t scared of a nuclear conflict so wants to stop the war.

Sharing costs may well be legit but turning off Starlink during a major offensive is a pretty slimy way to start the negotiation.

nejc · #**8031** 15.10.2022, 11:46

And in the mean time, Tajikistan's president demands respect from Russian President Vladimir Putin in a remarkable outburst at Central Asia-Russia summit in Astana
(Via Twitter) Rahmon blames the collapse of the Soviet Union on failure by Moscow to give proper consideration to the interests of the "small republics," implying that Russia is making the same mistakes all over again

As expected, Putin stays in denial: [URL="https://eurasianet.org/putin-blames-outsiders-for-stirring-trouble-in-central-asia"]Putin blames outsiders for stirring trouble in Central Asia.[/URL] Putin’s complaints overlook the real cause of tensions in the region: His invasion of Ukraine.

Like Yugoslavia, Balkan, Serbia, Milosevic, all over again, but this time with nukes. And no one strong enough to contain the conflict. It is clear again how destructive is a power structure that is based on unrestrained personal narcissism and fuelled by nationalism and how the world doesn't have means to protect itself.

LtSoftDrink · #**8032** 15.10.2022, 12:19

	Quote:	greenmount
	From tedious people like yourself that comes across rather hypocritical. But I wouldn't expect you to even see it that way. So keep going, glad you've established on which position you're playing the game here. Now if you excuse me, I'll let you spoil other people with your astute observations. I would never deprive anyone of such objective and genuine insights.

Well, it's a start - once you get to know me better, you’ll really start singing my praises

Phil_MCR · #**8033** 15.10.2022, 12:55

	Quote:
	The multi-billionaire said: "Russia leaves if that is will of the people."

An easier way would be for those people to leave Ukraine and move to Russia - RU has been giving out passports like confetti to them anyway.

greenmount · #**8034** 15.10.2022, 13:00

	Quote:	LtSoftDrink
	Well, it's a start - once you get to know me better, you’ll really start singing my praises

Nah, don't think so, I have a very low tolerance to trolls.

greenmount · #**8035** 15.10.2022, 13:09

	Quote:	marton
	Seems he is sh#t scared of a nuclear conflict so wants to stop the war.

Isn't that beyond his pay grade though? I'm scared, you're scared...and?

	Quote:	marton
	Sharing costs may well be legit but turning off Starlink during a major offensive is a pretty slimy way to start the negotiation.

I totally agree.

	Quote:	nejc
	Like Yugoslavia, Balkan, Serbia, Milosevic, all over again, but this time with nukes. And no one strong enough to contain the conflict. It is clear again how destructive is a power structure that is based on unrestrained personal narcissism and fuelled by nationalism and how the world doesn't have means to protect itself.

Of course the world has some means to protect itself but they were never used in relation with Russia.
Russia was always given the benefit of the doubt till it wasn't. Untill the end of February, 2022 to be more precise.
The West never conditioned feeding their accounts and enriching hundreds of oligarhs by democracy, human rights, democratic change of power (as in no-one can rule more than two mandates), you know, minor stuff like that. When Crimea was annexed they still didn't do much.
No, we are not that powerless in relation with these countries.

LtSoftDrink · #**8036** 15.10.2022, 13:37

	Quote:	greenmount
	Nah, don't think so, I have a very low tolerance to trolls.

Once you realize you call anybody who doesn’t agree with you a troll, I’ll be singing yours. Meanwhile, continue to live in interesting times.

greenmount · #**8037** 15.10.2022, 13:45

	Quote:	LtSoftDrink
	Once you realize you call anybody who doesn’t agree with you a troll, I’ll be singing yours. Meanwhile, continue to live in interesting times.

I don't call a troll someone who disagrees with me. Stop making false accusations.
There are many people here with whom I don't see eye to eye on many things (including this war) and they still make interesting partners of discussion.

marton · #**8038** 15.10.2022, 13:53

	Quote:	greenmount
	Isn't that beyond his pay grade though? I'm scared, you're scared...and?

The basic problem is society has yet to find a way to adequately punish the super-rich like Musk and Trump who refuse to follow the same rules as the rest of us. At worst they have to pay fines of a million or some millions, trivial for them.

	Quote:	Phil_MCR
	An easier way would be for those people to leave Ukraine and move to Russia - RU has been giving out passports like confetti to them anyway.

Plus a free compulsory army posting, who could resist such a golden opportunity?

greenmount · #**8039** 15.10.2022, 14:02

	Quote:	marton
	The basic problem is society has yet to find a way to adequately punish the super-rich like Musk and Trump who refuse to follow the same rules as the rest of us. At worst they have to pay fines of a million or some millions, trivial for them.

Do you have any idea how?

(preferably something that doesn't look as if depicted from some far-left utopia)

Maybe we should take Trump as a study case. Was anything there that has worked?

Edit: btw, Putin is a very, very rich man too. But same rules don't apply in a non-democratic country, even less so in a dictatorship like Russia.

marton · #**8040** 15.10.2022, 14:20

	Quote:	Urs Max
	The bridge is gonna be repaired by July 2023, says the BBC. According to Tagi, road and bridge are mostly closed. It looks like one rail and one road lane are usable with caution, trucks are waiting days to cross on the road. See their description below (translations by deepl). On another note, the agreement on grain exports runs out soon. Russia is discontent with the situation because Russian exports, including fertilisers, face hurdles that prevent them getting sold. Apparently the UN suggests to broaden the deal and extend it for one more year, to enable deals like the one where US company Trammo buys agricultural chemicals from the Russian Ukralchem and exports them via the Yuzne/Jusschni sea port 30-40km east of Odessa. Of course it wouldn't help if UA was indeed behind this blast, or if the current exports (the ships must be empty on their way to UA) were abused for weapons transports. Here's a picture of the damage where the fuel tanks burned.

Interesting information about the bridge repair. As I posted before the bridge was not built to military standards or even using techniques to minimise blast effects like a multi-girder framing system, presumably to save money. The continuous span construction of the roadway portion of the bridge was asking for trouble.

I did not know the neighbouring roadway suffered collateral damage, they have a difficult problem to solve.

Trying to rush the repair will likely lead to longer-term problems, the design weakness will not go away and could mean there will be more attacks now it is clear how vulnerable the bridge is to blast damage.