When I look out my window, I see it snowing and no Russian soldiers in Switzerland.

When people say we should not allow a negotiation with Russia....why do you speak for all of us? There are people who don't want to support the war in a financial way anymore.....sorry not sorry

Hmm, we did and do suffer the consequences of tens of wars, in close vicinity or far away....one way or another.

The idea is pretty clear to me, Ukraine and Russia will decide when they'll start talking.

You're perfectly within your right not to want to support a cause or another, even financially. But don't call others "despicable" when they are not the ones that sent people to their deaths in the first place.

And then sure, yes, you can say there's no Russian soldiers in Switzerland, but then why did the Swiss army ran the largest defense exercise in the last 20 years just a few weeks ago?

Do you see any Ukrainian refugees out of your window or do you deliberately avoid looking at them?

So in your fantasy world, the many thousands of Ukrainian civilians murdered by the Russians are not human beings, or do you close your eyes to them also?

probably makes more sense to ask what the US wants to get out of the situation and work from there. they already achieved (or close to achieving) the following:

1. severe crippling of Russian economy that will take decades to recover
2. crippling Russian military to level that reduces threat to NATO
3. destruction/disablement of nordstream
4. expansion of NATO to FI/SE
5. keeping UA out of Russian orbit
6. establish europe as market for US LNG
7. stabilize region after the war to reduce their commitments so they can focus on China next
8. shift more defence burden to Europe
9. keep US electorate happy

As US enters recession, I think only item #9 will push them to wrap things up.

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I didn't mention anyone specifically, but I do find it odd that people who are not directly involved in the conflict have such a hatred towards one side or the other.

As for your little point about the military exercise, this was in planning for two years...and as such precedes this conflict by a bit

Maybe because indifference does not equal me rooting for their deaths? Nobody here cares about the 200,000 Iraqi civillizians dead from the US invasion, or the Afghani, or Yemeni..... so what makes them special? Or do you only care about the UAs because they're white?

I didn't see the Strawman coming out quite THAT quickly in this discussion.

Not white, but a bit to "like us" to get people onside. I also don't remember too much "send in the tanks" screaming from Europe as hundreds of thousands of Uighur muslims have been murdered over China way.

We're full of double standards. Palestinians dying at the hands of israel (in the tens, perhaps hundreds each year ?) "OUTRAGE OUTRAGE ZIONIST MURDERERS!". Meanwhile perhaps 250,000 die of famine in africa "well, you know, i mean it is africa after all. anyway, whats for dinner ?".

humans are rubbish.

What? That's a really bad example. We didn't send a proper medical team to investigate this corona epidemics (at that stage) when it could have been done something! Maybe..just maybe. Or the Chinese labs. Ask yourself why nobody screams send in the tanks to some places...but we can try to hit these regimes where it hurts them most: money. Influence. Validity.

There's a geopolitical element to it, too. Putin has said he wants to rebuild the Soviet Union and claim back the territories which were lost. If he's placated over Ukraine, I think the rest of the former territories might be a bit twitchy wondering if they're next. And what then?

i think we already discussed the racial aspect to it, i thought chuff summed it up quite well:

"It is natural and instinctive to identify more with people of similar race and culture, we do it almost unconsciously... that doesn't make a person racist, it makes them human. People do feel sympathy for and did help Syrian/Afghan etc refugees, but it should be no surprise to anyone with half a brain that people are in general more disposed to refugees they share greater racial and/or ethnic commonalities with, especially with more volume of women and children that just single men. That doesn't mean they reject everyone else and it doesn't mean they are racist.

I'm not rooting against peace, quite the opposite: appeasing Pootin will only validate the death and destruction he has caused. And you cannot negotiate with anyone who isn't dealing with the real set of facts: Pootin started this war out of imperialistic ambition, nothing else.

And the suffering is just as big in Russia. Families are losing their sons, brothers, fathers. Mothers are raising their children alone. Nobody dares speak freely for fear concrete poisoning or disappearing into a gulag somewhere, LGBTQ+ have been deemed an underclass and the brain-drain continues as anyone who can get out, is getting out. Russian soldiers are poorly equipped or trained, those who don't get killed are dying of the elements.

Ukrainians are paying a high cost in the short term, but long term, it is the Russians themselves who will suffer the most. And even if he is replaced, a hard-liner will almost certainly replace him as these are the only ones remaining in seats of power.

So at the day, your average Russian will pay the biggest price because of the ego of one short balding man.

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So sayeth the 'Speed
* I do look like my avatar

Do you only care about Russian soldiers dying because they are white?

Like TC you frequently miss the point but do try to remember this thread is about the war in Ukraine which is why I was talking about Ukraine civilians regardless of their colour.
Actually, just like in America not all Ukrainians are white, especially those from the south and west of the country - so sorry to spoil your racist claim.

If you want to talk about other countries then there are suitable threads.

This isn't Saddam or Milosevic.....you can put the pain to Russia but they can hold out for a long time and deal a large amount of blowback to sanctions. Enough to destabilize the west

This thread which is about Ukraine is not about "send in the tanks" but about "send back the [Russian] tanks"

My how quickly the visage comes off the moral preening

They have already destabilised the West*. Of course, there's always place for more...
*having their complicity in some pretty bad decisions re. fuel

What we see now could be damage control....

You seem to ignore one simple fact:
1. When Russians go home the killing stops.
2. When Ukrainians... well, they have nowhere else to go.


I am not happy with Russians dying. But the problem with governments always is - you, as a citizen, are somehow responsible for your goverment. Because you at least allowed it to exist and develop into that awful form.