Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #8701  
Old 21.01.2023, 02:36
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Zurich
Posts: 128
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 135 Times in 55 Posts
hellacopters has earned the respect of manyhellacopters has earned the respect of manyhellacopters has earned the respect of many
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank hellacopters for this useful post:
  #8702  
Old 21.01.2023, 10:22
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 4,436
Groaned at 479 Times in 345 Posts
Thanked 10,413 Times in 4,399 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

The German indecision is not only severerly damaging Ukraine's chances. It also looks politically stupid as it seems clear than sooner or later Western MBTs will be delivered, and Germany will have lost even more face internationally at a time when Germany is weaker than it has been in 30 years. Domestically, also a losing topic as the ones who favour deliveries are livid and of the 45% who oppose 50% who are fundamentally opposed to any support for Ukraine.
Reply With Quote
  #8703  
Old 21.01.2023, 11:00
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 12,636
Groaned at 765 Times in 646 Posts
Thanked 25,054 Times in 13,108 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
If Belarus comes into the war then we have the making of a third world war.
Many people believe the Belarus armed forces would rebel if ordered to attack Ukraine. Certainly, there are many Belarus volunteers fighting for Ukraine.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #8704  
Old 21.01.2023, 14:43
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 11,804
Groaned at 98 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 20,892 Times in 9,204 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Not sure what this will achieve in the real world?
It shows the US government is "doing something". I guess.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank 3Wishes for this useful post:
  #8705  
Old 21.01.2023, 14:53
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 4,436
Groaned at 479 Times in 345 Posts
Thanked 10,413 Times in 4,399 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
It shows the US government is "doing something". I guess.
"The designation will allow a wider application of sanctions against the group’s sprawling global network, which includes mercenary operations as well as businesses in Africa and elsewhere.

Declaring Wagner a “Transnational Criminal Organization” under US executive order 13581 freezes any US assets of Wagner and prohibits US nationals from providing funds, goods or services to the group."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...l-organisation
Reply With Quote
  #8706  
Old 21.01.2023, 15:00
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 12,636
Groaned at 765 Times in 646 Posts
Thanked 25,054 Times in 13,108 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
The German indecision is not only severerly damaging Ukraine's chances. It also looks politically stupid as it seems clear than sooner or later Western MBTs will be delivered, and Germany will have lost even more face internationally at a time when Germany is weaker than it has been in 30 years. Domestically, also a losing topic as the ones who favour deliveries are livid and of the 45% who oppose 50% who are fundamentally opposed to any support for Ukraine.
I agree "sooner or later Western MBTs will be delivered" and it will be good that Ukraine moves away from Soviet equipment to more modern but I doubt it would be a game changer.

This is more like a first world war type artillery war where Russia has a big advantage and that needs to be addressed. The M109 is a 60's vintage American 155 mm turreted self-propelled howitzer and it is claimed the US has thousands in storage which would be a great addition for Ukraine; it is believed they currently have around 50.
Reply With Quote
  #8707  
Old 21.01.2023, 20:19
MidfieldGeneral's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,598
Groaned at 108 Times in 101 Posts
Thanked 3,389 Times in 1,376 Posts
MidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
"The designation will allow a wider application of sanctions against the group’s sprawling global network, which includes mercenary operations as well as businesses in Africa and elsewhere.

Declaring Wagner a “Transnational Criminal Organization” under US executive order 13581 freezes any US assets of Wagner and prohibits US nationals from providing funds, goods or services to the group."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...l-organisation
1. whats the point if this? sanctions? does it make any difference

and

2. oh the irony given the USA's dark ops
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank MidfieldGeneral for this useful post:
  #8708  
Old 21.01.2023, 21:23
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Baselland
Posts: 15,880
Groaned at 312 Times in 210 Posts
Thanked 20,387 Times in 8,572 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
I agree "sooner or later Western MBTs will be delivered" and it will be good that Ukraine moves away from Soviet equipment to more modern but I doubt it would be a game changer.

This is more like a first world war type artillery war where Russia has a big advantage and that needs to be addressed. The M109 is a 60's vintage American 155 mm turreted self-propelled howitzer and it is claimed the US has thousands in storage which would be a great addition for Ukraine; it is believed they currently have around 50.
probably logistics is more important. with soviet era tanks, they have difficulty getting supplies. whereas if they use the german tanks, they can get supplies from various nato countries.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #8709  
Old 21.01.2023, 21:28
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kt.Zh
Posts: 12,542
Groaned at 494 Times in 409 Posts
Thanked 19,916 Times in 10,059 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
In the meantime, Germany continues to act as a Russian Trojan horse in the heart of Europe. Shameful, disgraceful, cowardly and beyond disgusting. Germany should be ashamed of itself!
Austria too. Look at OMV and many other Austrian companies basically owned by Russians.
When you have such friends you don't need enemies....

Last edited by greenmount; 21.01.2023 at 21:48.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #8710  
Old 22.01.2023, 00:04
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Basel
Posts: 2
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
GordyPops has become a little unpopularGordyPops has become a little unpopular
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
1. whats the point if this? sanctions? does it make any difference

and

2. oh the irony given the USA's dark ops
Hear hear!
Reply With Quote
This user groans at GordyPops for this post:
  #8711  
Old 22.01.2023, 17:14
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 4,436
Groaned at 479 Times in 345 Posts
Thanked 10,413 Times in 4,399 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

That's an interesting aspect of the tank debate.

Allegedly, Germany fears that once Polush, Czech etc. Leopards are given to Ukraine, they will not be replaced by German but American tanks. One argument is that German production capacities have been so much reduced that tanks ae produced in rathrer hand-made than in industrial fashion.

Not sure what to think of this. If true, this business is anyhow lost for the German arms industry, apart from maintenance contracts. Also, German "structural pacifism" seems to blame.

https://www.nzz.ch/international/kam...ern-ld.1722377
Reply With Quote
  #8712  
Old 22.01.2023, 17:19
kiwiguy08's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,468
Groaned at 220 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 1,805 Times in 996 Posts
kiwiguy08 has a reputation beyond reputekiwiguy08 has a reputation beyond reputekiwiguy08 has a reputation beyond reputekiwiguy08 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
That's an interesting aspect of the tank debate.

Allegedly, Germany fears that once Polush, Czech etc. Leopards are given to Ukraine, they will not be replaced by German but American tanks. One argument is that German production capacities have been so much reduced that tanks ae produced in rathrer hand-made than in industrial fashion.

Not sure what to think of this. If true, this business is anyhow lost for the German arms industry, apart from maintenance contracts. Also, German "structural pacifism" seems to blame.

https://www.nzz.ch/international/kam...ern-ld.1722377

That “pacifism” is what has kept general peace in Europe for 75+ years!!
Reply With Quote
  #8713  
Old 22.01.2023, 17:23
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 4,436
Groaned at 479 Times in 345 Posts
Thanked 10,413 Times in 4,399 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
That “pacifism” is what has kept general peace in Europe for 75+ years!!
No. Neither Germany was pacificistic in the Cold War. After 1990, in the alleged era of "the end of history", Germany has failed to accept its responsibility to co-lead an integrated Europe and has - like many others - been a complete freerider in terms of national security.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank komsomolez for this useful post:
  #8714  
Old 23.01.2023, 10:27
litespeed's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dietikon ZH
Posts: 2,691
Groaned at 31 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 4,378 Times in 1,455 Posts
litespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

It is quite fascinating when you think of WWII industrial capacity on both sides compared to today. Tanks, guns, battleship, planes were being produced in absurd quantities.

The difference to today was these weapons were more or less simple, and all components locally sourced. Ramping up production to replace losses in the Ukraine theatre needs to start now - otherwise the Russia will get the edge
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank litespeed for this useful post:
  #8715  
Old 23.01.2023, 12:26
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 12,636
Groaned at 765 Times in 646 Posts
Thanked 25,054 Times in 13,108 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
I doubt they are committing their best troops to a turkey shoot. From my understanding, they have 3 levels:

The most disposable troops (prison conscripts and ethnic minorities) are sent on the attack waves. Life expectancy can be measured in hours, maybe days.

Other mobilised troops are then used to advance to or hold defensive positions at the front line.

Regular army are then used as "barrier" troops: basically they shoot anyone retreating or deserting.
There are claims that Russia will abandon this strategy to send in the most disposable troops first after the Wagner mercenary group has failed to make any significant advances to Bahkmut after six months.

The major criticism is those who survive their attacks and actually reach Ukraine's front lines do not have the training or equipment to suppress the defences so not allowing the entry of the next wave of more skilled troops.
It is claimed they mostly just take cover and then get wiped out in the next counter-offensive.

This strategy was the brainchild of the Wagner group leader Prigozhin who is not a trained military leader, in fact, is himself an ex-prisoner.

The Wagner group relies on the Russian army to supply most of their heavy armament so could have their supplies strangled at any time if Putin decides they are not delivering, mercenary groups are illegal in Russia.
Reply With Quote
  #8716  
Old 23.01.2023, 12:33
litespeed's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dietikon ZH
Posts: 2,691
Groaned at 31 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 4,378 Times in 1,455 Posts
litespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
There are claims that Russia will abandon this strategy to send in the most disposable troops first after the Wagner mercenary group has failed to make any significant advances to Bahkmut after six months.

The major criticism is those who survive their attacks and actually reach Ukraine's front lines do not have the training or equipment to suppress the defences so not allowing the entry of the next wave of more skilled troops.
It is claimed they mostly just take cover and then get wiped out in the next counter-offensive.

This strategy was the brainchild of the Wagner group leader Prigozhin who is not a trained military leader, in fact, is himself an ex-prisoner.

The Wagner group relies on the Russian army to supply most of their heavy armament so could have their supplies strangled at any time if Putin decides they are not delivering, mercenary groups are illegal in Russia.
Are you sure? Kim seems to have Wagner's back:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64072570

I'm also not convinced Wagner will drop the strategy. A dead prisoner doesn't have to be paid. Although apparently word is out in the prison system that signing up for Wagner is like playing Russian Roulette with only one of the six chambers being empty. So many prisoners are preferring to take their chances in the prison showers instead.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank litespeed for this useful post:
  #8717  
Old 23.01.2023, 13:59
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 12,636
Groaned at 765 Times in 646 Posts
Thanked 25,054 Times in 13,108 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Are you sure? Kim seems to have Wagner's back:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64072570

I'm also not convinced Wagner will drop the strategy. A dead prisoner doesn't have to be paid. Although apparently word is out in the prison system that signing up for Wagner is like playing Russian Roulette with only one of the six chambers being empty. So many prisoners are preferring to take their chances in the prison showers instead.
There are conflicting reports.

Prigozhin has a major Wagner centre in St. Petersburg.

Prigozhin had called on the Russian State Duma and Prosecutor General’s office to fire and imprison St. Petersburg Governor Alexander Beglov for treason, claiming that Beglov had hindered Russia’s war efforts. Roughly translated Beglov was not bowing to Prigozhin's demands.

Prigozhin’s efforts along these lines went nowhere. Putin, on the other hand, met with Beglov in St. Petersburg on January 18 making clear that Beglov had won this round.
Reply With Quote
  #8718  
Old 23.01.2023, 17:24
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SG
Posts: 10,854
Groaned at 720 Times in 527 Posts
Thanked 14,865 Times in 7,783 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
There are claims that Russia will abandon this strategy to send in the most disposable troops first after the Wagner mercenary group has failed to make any significant advances to Bahkmut after six months.
The difference of two months.
Russia's advances are anything but insignificant in size, you're falling victim to the propaganda.

Taken from https://deepstatemap.live/en#6/56.083/59.123


End of November:




January 23:


Last edited by Urs Max; 23.01.2023 at 22:00. Reason: source added
Reply With Quote
  #8719  
Old 23.01.2023, 17:29
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: ZH
Posts: 783
Groaned at 63 Times in 56 Posts
Thanked 3,041 Times in 1,191 Posts
ShirleyNot has a reputation beyond reputeShirleyNot has a reputation beyond reputeShirleyNot has a reputation beyond reputeShirleyNot has a reputation beyond reputeShirleyNot has a reputation beyond reputeShirleyNot has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Ironically, those random maps could be Russian propaganda...

Quote:
View Post
The difference of two months.
Russia's advances are anything but insignificant in size, you're falling victim to the propaganda.


End of November:




January 23:

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank ShirleyNot for this useful post:
This user groans at ShirleyNot for this post:
  #8720  
Old 23.01.2023, 19:59
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 4,436
Groaned at 479 Times in 345 Posts
Thanked 10,413 Times in 4,399 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

The war is not going well for Ukraine at the moment. Don't fall for stupid memes making fun of the Russians. Ukraine had significant losses in Cherson and now around Bakhmut. Of course, it is not going well for Russia either but the difference is that Russia has infinite personnel to throw at this, probably loads of crappy material and does not give a damn how many people it loses. Russia has built siginificant defensive positions in the entire southeast of Ukraine in the last months, mobilization is clesrly having a positive effect and Russia will certainly try to regain the initiative. Gerasimov has to now that he is directly in the driver seat.

Ukraine needs more weapons and ammo.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank komsomolez for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
crimea, russia, ukraine




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jewish Refugees in Switzerland during World War II zanskar International affairs/politics 48 16.06.2010 16:58
Book about Switzerland in the second world war [recommendation?] telandy Other/general 14 18.06.2007 21:15


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0