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  #1221  
Old 13.02.2015, 21:42
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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No miracle in any near future. Nothing can stop the Eastern militia to stop fighting at this point.
One thing can stop them: when they run out of tanks and ammunition. If the stream of these stop coming in from Russia, the war would end within a week or two. Unfortunatley there were reports of even more tanks and APC's coming over the border even while the peace talks were ongoing

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Now the US is stuck with Ukraine like it or not and who in their right mind wants a country that is basicaly in ruins?
...
Just another country that the US military elite have turned into a blood bath.
How is the US "stuck" with Ukraine? I'd say the IMF is stuck with Ukraine, as that's who will have to bail them out. And the EU is "stuck" with this situation of having a dysfunctional country at war on their border, with Putin turning it on and off at will.... But how is the US "stuck" with anything here? And the US military has done what exactly so far? The blankets they sent to Ukraine has turned it into a bloodbath somehow?

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And what has happened is nothing compared to what is going to happen when the people turn against the government.
We saw it already las year when the Ukrainian people kicked Yanukovich out. Too bad the Russian people can't take their country back from Putin the same way before he destroys the country even further
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  #1222  
Old 13.02.2015, 21:45
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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A WWII memorial somewhere in Russia

About 120 names on the WWII memorial. Today the village of дупленская has about 1100 inhabitants.

But look at the dates - according to Russia the WWII started in 1941, and not when they invaded Poland or Finland.

Russia is full of BS.
Soviet Union has lost so many lived in WWII (by the way what exactly did your country contribute?) -- that they will put any dates they want on their memorials, especially on the memorial "somewhere in Russia"

In Russian the conflict fought by the Soviet Union from 1941 to 1945 is called the Great Patriotic War http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great...otic_War_(term)
This is why these dates are mentioned there.
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  #1223  
Old 13.02.2015, 22:03
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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.........

Quite a list yes? I am not stating that this is true but it is interesting to read. If anyone has any comments on this author I would be interested to read them.

I think it would be be foolish for anyone to underestimate Putin. This man rose from being a homeless kid to the head of Russia. I have seen Yt videos on Putin explaining his rise to power. Although they are very dodgy at best, like so many other Yt vids. Perhaps i should look into any books on the man as well.

This is a straight copy and paste from this web site. I just discovered it today so have had not time to research into the web site or the author.
What a long list Well, this is why Putin enjoys a huge support in Russia and is hated by the West. When Russia was looted during the 90s and drunk Eltzin was a national embarrassment -- Eltzin was liked here.
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  #1224  
Old 13.02.2015, 22:03
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I'm not actually sure how and why this is a US issue. It looks more like a West-East issue. Sure, Europe is spineless and would rather resign from their responsibilities. Between Obama and Putin, Putin has more range of options and strategy as a dictator, so has the latitude to accomplish more. Obama can hardly take a vacation without his expenses being scrutinized. But between West and Russia, its pretty clear where the Ukrainians want to turn.

From Putin's perspective, he's got a hook on Ukraine to prevent what he fears most - Ukraine joining NATO. I believe that is his primary objective in all this. So he may very well won Ukraine, and the Ukrainians may very well suffer in resistance. But you do have all the other Eastern countries witnessing what is taking place here. That is the bigger stake - how far Russian expansionism be allowed to go?

At the moment, nobody has any apetite for military war. The war being waged on the economic front is lucrative enough.

I think Europe bears more responsibility here than the US. I believe we just saw them appease Putin. They can't passive-aggressively behave like that, and then expect to run behind the US. And I don't think the US should be fighting their fights for them either.

At this point, I think Ukraine needs to reckon where they want to go. They may be better off splitting up, or look for a path for reconciliation. At the moment, they are committing suicide.
Oh c'mon, Europe doesn't need any war with Putin; they need gas. That's why Ms. Merkel and Mr.Hollande were there...
I didn't hear the voice of the Russian ethnics separatists. Who and where are they? Is Putin talking in their name?
Somethings is missing from all these late events: the Ukrainians.
And no, this time it's not the old USA.
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  #1225  
Old 13.02.2015, 22:07
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Putin has more range of options and strategy as a dictator.
What you don't get is that by Russian standard, Putin is a moderate. Being screwed by the Nato over and over made him sensitive to more screwing but he has to deal with a frange of the parliament that would happily give a whole new meaning to dictatorship. The wars in Ossetia and Chechnya were very popular, and even though I am aware of the fact that Russians see Ukrainians as brother people against whom it is harder to sustain a war, Russian public opinion will not blink an eye if they see it as a war against American power play in proxy.

I am fine with people not liking Putin, but be aware that there is a good half of the Russian public opinion those people would dislike far more. Putin acts as a moderator by Russian standards.

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Somethings is missing from all these late events: the Ukrainians.
Hm... you are missing an important point here : the people in the east that the western media call Russians are Ukrainian both by Ukrainian and Russian standard. The language is NOT the line here. This is a fallacy the western media need in their propaganda like the Russian media need the word "fascist" for the Carpathian nationalists. Propaganda goes both ways.
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  #1226  
Old 13.02.2015, 22:19
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I didn't hear the voice of the Russian ethnics separatists. Who and where are they? Is Putin talking in their name?
.
That is a very valid point. The leaders of Donetskaya and Luganskays Republics are well known people and all over the news, but here nobody knows their named and faces. You have to use different sources of information to get the picture )))
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  #1227  
Old 13.02.2015, 22:24
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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What you don't get is that by Russian standard, Putin is a moderate. Being screwed by the Nato over and over made him sensitive to more screwing but he has to deal with a frange of the parliament that would happily give a whole new meaning to dictatorship. The wars in Ossetia and Chechnya were very popular, and even though I am aware of the fact that Russians see Ukrainians as brother people against whom it is harder to sustain a war, Russian public opinion will not blink an eye if they see it as a war against American power play in proxy.

I am fine with people not liking Putin, but be aware that there is a good half of the Russian public opinion those people would dislike far more. Putin acts as a moderator by Russian standards.


Hm... you are missing an important point here : the people in the east that the western media call Russians are Ukrainian both by Ukrainian and Russian standard. The language is NOT the line here. This is a fallacy the western media need in their propaganda like the Russian media need the word "fascist" for the Carpathian nationalists. Propaganda goes both ways.
If they have to distinguish, they wouldn't blink an eye to say what they are, but of course anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. Anyway, that's what I called them Ukrainians...let's say Ukrainian separatists then.

And you're right, Putin doesn't have the power or the available means of exercising it like Stalin, Brezhnev, Chernenko etc. had.

Last edited by greenmount; 13.02.2015 at 22:35.
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  #1228  
Old 13.02.2015, 23:42
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

I really hate the idea of the US sending lethal weapons. But if they really need it to defend themselves, I would remind them we have these sporting goods stores all over the US. They accept credit cards. Their cousin in Chicago can buy it and ship it to them.
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  #1229  
Old 14.02.2015, 01:00
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Well the Russians have what they want. Crimea is now well and truly under Russian control at least for the forseeable future. A 95% result in favour of Russia saw to that.

I tend to think of Putin a as "because I can" man. Needs to be kept on a leash like so many other dictators and world leaders.

But if I was going to place a bet on Putin or Obama it realy is a no brainer. Putin is much sneakier than Obama. Especially considering the massive support that the US president recieves.

Now the US is stuck with Ukraine like it or not and who in their right mind wants a country that is basicaly in ruins? And it wont take long before those Nazis who officialy run Ukraine get on the wrong side of the population. And when that time comes Russia will not step back in. They have Crimea and Crimea wants Russia not Nazis.

I know Nazis and full blown communists are a choice from hell to choose from but if it was me I would go for the communists. We and the Jews have already seen what Nazis are capable of.

Basicaly Ukraine is screwed.

Just another country that the US military elite have turned into a blood bath. And what has happened is nothing compared to what is going to happen when the people turn against the government.

About "We and the Jews have already seen what Nazis are capable of." But you were the guy who posted about Russia's success against the Nazi Anglo-zionists.


About "what is going to happen when the people turn against the government" You forget the Ukrainin president was voted in by a huge majority in a properly run democratic election.


Unlike the Crimea; you quoted "A 95% result in favour of Russia" in a referendum that was held under the gunpoint of the little green men without any proper lists of people eligible to vote, no independent observers and no clue who actually counted the votes.


To quote Joseph Stalin "It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything."
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  #1230  
Old 14.02.2015, 07:10
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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You mean Yanukovich?

I am sure you wanted to say you mean Poroshenko ?
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  #1231  
Old 14.02.2015, 07:13
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Perfect drawing, that about sums up the talks LOL


THE winner is Mr Lukashenko.
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  #1232  
Old 14.02.2015, 08:54
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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THE winner is Mr Lukashenko.
The winners are all the eagles (from Russia/West) who'll be taking advantage of the increasingly weak state of Ukraine, maintained in a grey area by mother Russia. The losers are Ukraine and the rest of Eastern Europe.
Ukraine is/will be punished for their orientation towards West. On the other hand they have made their own mistakes.
Europe doesn't want war, not only because of the commercial interests with Russia, but also because Europe is very pacifist today, and rightly so.

What a complicated and sad situation.
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  #1233  
Old 14.02.2015, 09:31
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I'm not actually sure how and why this is a US issue. It looks more like a West-East issue. Sure, Europe is spineless and would rather resign from their responsibilities. Between Obama and Putin, Putin has more range of options and strategy as a dictator, so has the latitude to accomplish more. Obama can hardly take a vacation without his expenses being scrutinized. But between West and Russia, its pretty clear where the Ukrainians want to turn.

From Putin's perspective, he's got a hook on Ukraine to prevent what he fears most - Ukraine joining NATO. I believe that is his primary objective in all this. So he may very well won Ukraine, and the Ukrainians may very well suffer in resistance. But you do have all the other Eastern countries witnessing what is taking place here. That is the bigger stake - how far Russian expansionism be allowed to go?

At the moment, nobody has any apetite for military war. The war being waged on the economic front is lucrative enough.

I think Europe bears more responsibility here than the US. I believe we just saw them appease Putin. They can't passive-aggressively behave like that, and then expect to run behind the US. And I don't think the US should be fighting their fights for them either.

At this point, I think Ukraine needs to reckon where they want to go. They may be better off splitting up, or look for a path for reconciliation. At the moment, they are committing suicide.


Since the end of WW-II and the start of NATO, Troubles in Europe are a USA issue. And the Notion of Warren G Harding Back to normalcy proved to be unsustainable very swiftly and Warren G Harding got rrd of the doctrine
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  #1234  
Old 14.02.2015, 10:55
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I didn't hear the voice of the Russian ethnics separatists. Who and where are they? Is Putin talking in their name?
Somethings is missing from all these late events: the Ukrainians.
The voice of the "separatists" are heard every time a bomb lands. They took up arms before any dialog could take place. They are terrorists and warlords sponsored and financed by Putin, not representing anyone except death and destruction.

In E.Ukraine, half the Ukrainian population has left and the other half who remain don't care any longer who is in power, they just want the fighting to stop. Nobody is really representing them. They should send this lady to Minsk who just had her 3 kids killed when a missile landed in her bathroom, she would be the best representation of E.Ukraine people right now:
http://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/...ine-family.cnn
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  #1235  
Old 14.02.2015, 13:21
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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THE winner is Mr Lukashenko.
I believe the real winners are:

Vladimir Putin, Angela Merkel and François Hollande despite the tepid progress of negotiations.

... and the losers are:

The useless EU commission (a political dwarf), the weak Ukrainian President, the hawkish Ukrainian prime minister, and most of Eastern European countries (especially Poland, Baltic states, Romania and Moldova) save perhaps Slovenia, Serbia and Hungary...
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  #1236  
Old 14.02.2015, 13:23
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Europe is very pacifist today, and rightly so.
A short guy with a tiny moustache caught Europe out back in the late 30's for being pacifists. His mad ramblings were ignored, whilst he slowly indoctrinated his folk and equipped them to become a formidable fighting machine. He targeted minorities and crushed his opponents. He then invaded his neighbour. I think we all know what happened next.

Doesn't it sound a bit familiar to what is happening now?

If you want peace, you have to prepare for war. Capitulation is not an option.
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  #1237  
Old 14.02.2015, 14:40
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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If you want peace, you have to prepare for war. Capitulation is not an option.

A direct war against Russia never gonna happen.

The European countries with the strongest militaries are mostly in Western Europe (see the ranking below). The U.S. and all Western European countries + Turkey will avoid any entanglement in this conflict. The armies of Poland, Lithuania, Estonia and impoverished Ukraine would stand no chance against Russia. Clearly, the greatest enemies of countries like Ukraine, Moldova, Romania etc. are poverty, corruption, sluggish economy, high unemployment and the high prevalence of STDs..... not Russia.

In fact nobody is even talking about Ukraine's fast-growing HIV/AIDS epidemic crisis . Sky News and BFMTV (a French-based news channel) had some interesting reports...



According to one of my UZH professors' lecture notes, the top 20 most powerful militaries in Europe (excluding Russia) are:

UK *
Germany *
France *
Turkey *
Italy *
Spain *
the Netherlands *
Sweden
Switzerland
Greece *
Belgium *
Austria
Portugal *
Poland *
Serbia
Denmark *
Finland
Norway *
Czech Republic *
Hungary *

* NATO
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  #1238  
Old 14.02.2015, 15:03
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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A short guy with a tiny moustache caught Europe out back in the late 30's for being pacifists. His mad ramblings were ignored, whilst he slowly indoctrinated his folk and equipped them to become a formidable fighting machine.

That's actually not true. Germany started the revenge war secret preparations back in early 1920s:
mobile.nzz.ch/international/europa/ein-geheimplan-fuer-den-zweiten-weltkrieg-1.18368619
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  #1239  
Old 14.02.2015, 15:13
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World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Soviet Union has lost so many lived in WWII (by the way what exactly did your country contribute?) -- that they will put any dates they want on their memorials, especially on the memorial "somewhere in Russia"



In Russian the conflict fought by the Soviet Union from 1941 to 1945 is called the Great Patriotic War http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great...otic_War_(term)

This is why these dates are mentioned there.

Russia is full of LIE and CRIME. It is estimated that In Gulags about 15-30 mln people died, that is at least as many as in WWII started by SU together with Germany in 1939.
Where is the memorial for these fallen in 1939-1941? Where is the memorial for these fallen in Gulags?! For the casualties of disastrous land nationalization (collectivization) and ensuing famines?! Russia is founded on lies.
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  #1240  
Old 14.02.2015, 16:00
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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A direct war against Russia never gonna happen.


Populations are rising, resources are dwindling. War is inevitable
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