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  #1241  
Old 14.02.2015, 16:01
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Russia is full of LIE and CRIME. It is estimated that In Gulags about 15-30 mln people died, that is at least as many as in WWII started by SU together with Germany in 1939.
Where is the memorial for these fallen in 1939-1941? Where is the memorial for these fallen in Gulags?! For the casualties of disastrous land nationalization (collectivization) and ensuing famines?! Russia is founded on lies.
In 1938 Hitler, Mussolini, Daladier and Chamberlain signed the Munich Pact and handed over to Germany Sudentenland, together with 66 percent of Czechoslovakia's coal, 70 percent of its iron and steel, and 70 percent of its electrical power. This was the start of WWII, wasn't it?

For those fallen in Gulag there are a lot of memorials, anybody can find information on that easily.
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  #1242  
Old 14.02.2015, 16:10
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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A direct war against Russia never gonna happen.


Populations are rising, resources are dwindling. War is inevitable.
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  #1243  
Old 14.02.2015, 16:15
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

The head of Donetsk Republic just signed an order to seasefire. The seasefire suppose to start today in midnight. How long will it hold? I give it a few hours.

By the way, why didn't the seasefire start immedeately on 12 of February when the deal was reached? What was the point keep fighting for another two days? This is one of many questions about this peace agreement.
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  #1244  
Old 14.02.2015, 16:16
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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By the way, why didn't the seasefire start immedeately on 12 of February when the deal was reached? What was the point to fight for another few days? This is one of many questions about this peace agreement.
Simple. Putin wanted to give his minions some more time to try and conquer Debaltseve. Hopefully they failed.
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  #1245  
Old 14.02.2015, 16:31
leonie
 
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Populations are rising, resources are dwindling. War is inevitable
Debt is piling up, some governments are facing bunkruptcy. War is inevitable.
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  #1246  
Old 14.02.2015, 16:37
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

I've been watching a lot of videos and gifs of Russians just recently. If you see someone jumping into a frozen lake to rescue a dog - he'll be a Russian. If you see someone jump out of the cab of a truck and land on his feet as his truck contributes to a 15 vehicle pile up - he'll be a Russian. If you see someone jump off a bridge, climb to the top of an electricity pylon, stand on the crumbling edge of a cliff in an earthquake - he'll be a Russian.

Against adversaries as mental as that, we've got no chance.

I think we should just let them have what they want and send them a tribute of a few million gallons of industrial alcohol every year in the hope that they'll leave us alone.

Think of all the pretzels and beer we could have enjoyed if we'd listened to Chamberlain!
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  #1247  
Old 14.02.2015, 16:55
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I've been watching a lot of videos and gifs of Russians just recently. If you see someone jumping into a frozen lake to rescue a dog - he'll be a Russian. If you see someone jump out of the cab of a truck and land on his feet as his truck contributes to a 15 vehicle pile up - he'll be a Russian. If you see someone jump off a bridge, climb to the top of an electricity pylon, stand on the crumbling edge of a cliff in an earthquake - he'll be a Russian.

Against adversaries as mental as that, we've got no chance.
...lf you see someone hiking naked on a snowy mountain - he'll be a Swiss. But really, you mean these guys? Yea, I wouldn't want to meet them on the battlefield either

Anyway, it's estimated 70% of casualties so far in E.Ukraine are from artillery/GRAD shelling, no matter how crazy/brave/daring you are, you aren't going to win a fight with a rocket.
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  #1248  
Old 14.02.2015, 16:56
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I think we should just let them have what they want and send them a tribute of a few million gallons of industrial alcohol every year in the hope that they'll leave us alone.

Think of all the pretzels and beer we could have enjoyed if we'd listened to Chamberlain!
You probably should keep your made in Turkey vodka to yourself... other than that it's a great plan, almost as good as Minsk 2.
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  #1249  
Old 14.02.2015, 17:48
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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For those fallen in Gulag there are a lot of memorials, anybody can find information on that easily.
During Soviet times, the gulags were covered up as much as possible. My relatives who grew up in the Soviet Union were taught that people who were sent to Gulags saw it as like kind of like going to a "summer camp". After the Soviet Union collapsed, there were some memorials built, but still this history was kind of covered over and not really talked about much. For sure no kind of public admission or mass guilt about it. If you compare to Germany who paid billion or trillions to survivors and families of the dead. Now that Russia is leaning backward into Soviet times, Putin is alredy starting to erase memories again, and looking to get rid of the only (?) museum dedicated to Gulag remembrance:

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Perm-36, also known as ITK-6, is the only intact facility remaining in Russia from the Soviet-era gulag system of political prisons and labor camps. After the fall of the Soviet Union, Perm-36 was turned into a Gulag Museum, “to promote democratic values and civic consciousness in contemporary Russia through preservation of the last Soviet political camp as a living reminder of repression and as an important historical and cultural monument.”

On August 23, the English-language website “Russia Behind the Headlines” reported that Perm-36 is no longer open, and that its directors, Tatyana Kursina and Viktor Shmirov, had been fired. The pair was replaced, according to the website, by “an official from the Perm Ministry of Culture, Natalya Semakova, who had had no prior relationship to the museum. In July, after a series of unsuccessful attempts to restore the status quo, the non-governmental organization Perm-36 officially announced its termination of cooperation with the museum. It is currently preparing to collect all of its property – literally all of the museum’s collections. It is unclear what will be displayed in their place at the museum.”
“Russia Behind the Headlines” is run by the Moscow daily Rossiyskaya Gazeta (Russian Gazette).Rossiyskaya Gazeta identifies itself on its own website as an official publication, “founded by the government of the Russian Federation.”
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...nt_803864.html
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  #1250  
Old 14.02.2015, 17:58
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Simple. Putin wanted to give his minions some more time to try and conquer Debaltseve. Hopefully they failed.
How long do you think Ukraine will be able to keep Debaltseve after the ceasefire starts and the Ukrainian army has to withdraw their heavy weapons?

More worrying is the attack on Mariupol which is a step towards building a land bridge to Crimea and I assume has little to do with "protecting Ethnic Russians" since the city and population is targeted by heavy weapons?
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  #1251  
Old 14.02.2015, 19:11
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I believe the real winners are:

Vladimir Putin, Angela Merkel and François Hollande despite the tepid progress of negotiations.

... and the losers are:

The useless EU commission (a political dwarf), the weak Ukrainian President, the hawkish Ukrainian prime minister, and most of Eastern European countries (especially Poland, Baltic states, Romania and Moldova) save perhaps Slovenia, Serbia and Hungary...
We'll see about that, Linnea.

What are your views on Iran-Russia relations? I guess you know more about that than anyone else here.
Except, perhaps, for our lovely "Chüderwältsch".

P.S. Must admit though that you're right on one thing: being neighbours with a grey area will have long term negative effects on some countries, exactly the way the Yugoslav wars and afferent embargo affected us. Western embargo on Iran is not something that many people are happy about either.
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  #1252  
Old 14.02.2015, 19:55
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I've been watching a lot of videos and gifs of Russians just recently. If you see someone jumping into a frozen lake to rescue a dog - he'll be a Russian. If you see someone jump out of the cab of a truck and land on his feet as his truck contributes to a 15 vehicle pile up - he'll be a Russian. If you see someone jump off a bridge, climb to the top of an electricity pylon, stand on the crumbling edge of a cliff in an earthquake - he'll be a Russian.
Speak for yourself, Mister! I'm a russophile.
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  #1253  
Old 14.02.2015, 19:57
leonie
 
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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During Soviet times, the gulags were covered up as much as possible. My relatives who grew up in the Soviet Union were taught that people who were sent to Gulags saw it as like kind of like going to a "summer camp". After the Soviet Union collapsed, there were some memorials built, but still this history was kind of covered over and not really talked about much. For sure no kind of public admission or mass guilt about it. If you compare to Germany who paid billion or trillions to survivors and families of the dead...
That is simply not true.
I grew up in the Soviet Union. My parents remember the day when Stalin died. Almost every family back at that time had relatives which went to prison during Stalin's rule, and most didn't come back.

My great-grandfather was a blacksmith in the sugar factory in a small town near city of Zitomyr in the north-western Ukraine. He was arrested, imprisoned, tortured and executed before the WWII as a political criminal and polish spy (he could hardly read). My great-grandmother didn't have any information about him for years, she found out about his death years later, and it is not known where his grave is.

But in 1961 my great-grandfather and millions of other innocent victims have been officially rehabilitated by the state. We have a court order stating that he was innocent, that he was wrongly accused and excecuted.

More to the story, after the fall of the Soviet Union the family was able to receive photocopies of his file while he was in prison. I have everything here on my computer -- from the first form that was filled on him when he was arrested to the daily protocols of his meetings with the investigators, their questions, his answers, their names and positions, etc. We know the name of the neighbour who had pointed at him as criminal to the police, the names of the people who tortured him, we know how he cofessed to all crimes, but we also know that despite the horrible circumstances he didn't name any other person as an accomplice even under the huge pressure to do so.

Well, what I am trying to say by this -- my great-grandfather was not some kind of big party official but a very simple man from a very remote place. But still it was possible to recover a lot of information about him incriminating not only the state and the govenment, but specific people who took part in his arrest and execution.

Last edited by leonie; 14.02.2015 at 20:08.
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  #1254  
Old 14.02.2015, 20:28
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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That is simply not true.
.
Leonie, your great-grandfather was Russian.
Stalin literally removed aka deported to Siberia, Caucasus, Kazakhstan etc (from the present Moldova and Southern Ukraine for instance) entire populations/communities from their lands. Russia doesn't acknowledge all Stalinism's crimes.
Most people don't want anything now (apart from let us be)...just sayin'.
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  #1255  
Old 14.02.2015, 21:08
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Russia doesn't acknowledge all Stalinism's crimes.
That's true for any country that experienced a situation of superiority at some point.
It is impossible to talk about Algeria under colonial times in France either, because nobody will want to hear what an apartheid it was, incl. political murders. Even sweet Australia still has a painful time acknowledging that it was totally crap to call the place "terra nullius" in the first place. There is not one line in Danish history books on their total failure in Iceland, just the minimum about poverty and bad weather. Nobody cares either about the Diego Garcia's people who had to leave the place for military bases etc.
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  #1256  
Old 14.02.2015, 21:25
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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That's true for any country that experienced a situation of superiority at some point.
It is impossible to talk about Algeria under colonial times in France either, because nobody will want to hear what an apartheid it was, incl. political murders. Even sweet Australia still has a painful time acknowledging that it was totally crap to call the place "terra nullius" in the first place. There is not one line in Danish history books on their total failure in Iceland, just the minimum about poverty and bad weather. Nobody cares either about the Diego Garcia's people who had to leave the place for military bases etc.
True.
The same way as you'll still see Holocaust deniers. Anyway, I'm not dismissing Leonie's point, I was trying to say that the other poster (esto) had a point too.

Besides, I'd rather have a conversation with Leonie than with Linnea, Urs Max and the likes. If you know what I mean. But hey, the joys of open forums....
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  #1257  
Old 14.02.2015, 21:44
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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But in 1961 my great-grandfather and millions of other innocent victims have been officially rehabilitated by the state. We have a court order stating that he was innocent, that he was wrongly accused and excecuted.
I'm sorry to hear about your great-grandfather. I know in the 50-60's most people were finally released from the Gulags, but still the pubic acknowledgment in USSR/Russia was minimal. Were the gulag memorials built during Soviet times or after? What did the Soviet history books say about it? My relatives say it was hardly mentioned, or as I said before, like it was some kind of nice field-trip to live outdoors, cut some trees, make camp-fires, etc.

There is also little or no collective feeling of "wrongness" in Russia to this day. If you ask random people in Russia about the Gulags, you get responses like "well, it was difficult times, Stalin did what he had to do, etc." but rarely anyone says "yes it was horrible, something like that should never happen again".

If you go to Germany and ask random people about the Nazi death camps, practically everyone will tell you directly that it was wrong and terrible. They have publicly apologized about it endlessly to everyone, paid all kinds of compensation, etc.

Has your family got any kind of apology or compensation for your great-grandfathers wrongful death? (Aside from the paper that "rehabilitated" him?) Has Russia or the USSR ever apologized to other countries for deporting and killing their citizens en masse? (eg. Poland, Baltics, etc.) No, not at all, on the contrary:

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To this day the events of those and the following years constitute stumbling blocks in Polish-Russian foreign relations. Polish requests for the return of looted property or for an apology for Soviet-era crimes are either ignored or rejected. The Soviet and Russian state remind the nation of their version of history: "we freed you from Nazism: be grateful."[68]
PS- Very good read about the Gulags: http://www.anneapplebaum.com/gulag-a-history/
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  #1258  
Old 14.02.2015, 22:40
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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That's true for any country that experienced a situation of superiority at some point.
Russia's lies are of Orwellian type. It is not just about its criminal history, but about just anything in the public sphere. The president is not a president, the justice in all but justice, the security is to repress and not to protect. And the parliament is not. It is all a Potemkin mirage of a "normal" country.
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  #1259  
Old 14.02.2015, 22:44
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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It is all a Potemkin mirage of a "normal" country.
The phrase is actually Potemkin village, not mirage. At least in "normal" language.
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  #1260  
Old 14.02.2015, 22:50
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Maybe your mother-tongue doesn't feature this: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraphrase
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