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  #1261  
Old 14.02.2015, 22:51
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I believe the real winners are:

Vladimir Putin, Angela Merkel and François Hollande despite the tepid progress of negotiations.

... and the losers are:

The useless EU commission (a political dwarf), the weak Ukrainian President, the hawkish Ukrainian prime minister, and most of Eastern European countries (especially Poland, Baltic states, Romania and Moldova) save perhaps Slovenia, Serbia and Hungary...
About "The useless EU commission (a political dwarf)..." Europe is Russia's biggest energy customer & takes circa 80% of all exports.
Energy prices are crashing down due to oversupply, Putin's challenge is to retain Russia's market share. Must be time to start being nice to your biggest customer?

p.s. it is 10 minutes before midnight - will the guns stop?
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  #1262  
Old 14.02.2015, 22:54
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Maybe your mother-tongue doesn't feature this: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraphrase
Potemkin mirage is not a paraphrase, it's a pleonasm and a barbarism. Teachers know best.
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  #1263  
Old 14.02.2015, 23:04
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Now 5 past Midnight? Good news?
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  #1264  
Old 14.02.2015, 23:08
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Leonie, your great-grandfather was Russian.
He was NOT Russian

Back to the news -- Russian media reports that Poroshenko refuses to ceasefire. Seems like the peace deal is dead?
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  #1265  
Old 14.02.2015, 23:23
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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He was NOT Russian

Back to the news -- Russian media reports that Poroshenko refuses to ceasefire. Seems like the peace deal is dead?
Sorry, he just gave the order. How long will it hold?
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  #1266  
Old 14.02.2015, 23:27
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Sorry, he just gave the order. How long will it hold?
Depends on St. Vlad.
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  #1267  
Old 14.02.2015, 23:30
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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He was NOT Russian

Back to the news -- Russian media reports that Poroshenko refuses to ceasefire. Seems like the peace deal is dead?
Also in Russian media (Interfax ) "Mr Zakharchenko (rebel leader) said the ceasefire did not apply to the fighting in Debaltseve. The Minsk agreement doesn’t say a word about Debaltseve,” Timed at 15:22
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  #1268  
Old 14.02.2015, 23:50
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

The immunity is promised to the rebels. Netherlands is worried about the investigation and prosecution of the responsible for downing of MH317.
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  #1269  
Old 15.02.2015, 00:24
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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p.s. it is 10 minutes before midnight - will the guns stop?

Depends on whether one believes what's written in Pravda...
Debaltseve is still shelled indiscriminately, both military and civilians are entrapped there.
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  #1270  
Old 15.02.2015, 09:30
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Netherlands is worried about the investigation and prosecution of the responsible for downing of MH317.
With respect to the victims and their families, MH317 will never go to trial. It will be filed under "Collateral Damage" with many similar stories. After all, it was flying in a conflict zone.

War is hell.
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  #1271  
Old 15.02.2015, 13:15
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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With respect to the victims and their families, MH317 will never go to trial. It will be filed under "Collateral Damage" with many similar stories. After all, it was flying in a conflict zone.

War is hell.

A) with respect to the victims and their families, the case ought to be brought to Trial


B) Collateral Damage is a disrespectful and insulting Expression


C) Civil aircraft on scheduled flight regularily overfly conflict zones
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  #1272  
Old 15.02.2015, 13:27
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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A) with respect to the victims and their families, the case ought to be brought to Trial


B) Collateral Damage is a disrespectful and insulting Expression


C) Civil aircraft on scheduled flight regularily overfly conflict zones
A) Of course it should be. The reality is, there is a 99% chance it won't. Just like Crimea should be handed back to the Ukraine. Do you see that happening?

B) It is. But the perpertrators will never consider it as anything else.

C) Yes they do, and MH317 demostrates the risk involved in doing so. 36'000ft doesn't grant immunity.
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  #1273  
Old 15.02.2015, 18:43
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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A short guy with a tiny moustache caught Europe out back in the late 30's for being pacifists. His mad ramblings were ignored, whilst he slowly indoctrinated his folk and equipped them to become a formidable fighting machine. He targeted minorities and crushed his opponents. He then invaded his neighbour. I think we all know what happened next.

Doesn't it sound a bit familiar to what is happening now?

If you want peace, you have to prepare for war. Capitulation is not an option.
Hmm, that rather reminds me of "justifications" for the war against Iraq...with the mess we see today as the result.
Better not?
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  #1274  
Old 15.02.2015, 19:24
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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A) Of course it should be. The reality is, there is a 99% chance it won't. Just like Crimea should be handed back to the Ukraine. Do you see that happening?

B) It is. But the perpertrators will never consider it as anything else.

C) Yes they do, and MH317 demostrates the risk involved in doing so. 36'000ft doesn't grant immunity.


A) The CRIMEA will stay with Russia
B) The MH317 matter is hopeless due to lack of proof
C) Thousands of scheduled civil airplanes overfly conflict zones daily. usually in close conjunction with the ATC offices of the wider area
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  #1275  
Old 15.02.2015, 22:43
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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A) The CRIMEA will stay with Russia
B) The MH317 matter is hopeless due to lack of proof
C) Thousands of scheduled civil airplanes overfly conflict zones daily. usually in close conjunction with the ATC offices of the wider area
About " The MH317 matter is hopeless due to lack of proof" Actually there is plenty of proof but for some unknown reason the countries who have the proof do not want to publicise what they have
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  #1276  
Old 15.02.2015, 22:48
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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About " The MH317 matter is hopeless due to lack of proof" Actually there is plenty of proof but for some unknown reason the countries who have the proof do not want to publicise what they have
Well, if the US had proof that the Russians shut it down, their interest would be to make it known asap, not hiding it. If someone manages to build a coherent argument free of the usual fallacies, I call the Nobel committee for nominees myself on the spot. I said free of fallacies, that's the hard part.

For the record: I genuinely don't know and don't have an opinion about this, I just find the think experiment interesting. To me, both sides are perfectly capable of shutting a plane and blaming it on the other side - equally able.
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  #1277  
Old 15.02.2015, 22:56
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Well, if the US had proof that the Russians shut it down, their interest would be to make it known asap, not hiding it. If someone manages to build a coherent argument free of the usual fallacies, I call the Nobel committee for nominees myself on the spot. I said free of fallacies, that's the hard part.

For the record: I genuinely don't know and don't have an opinion about this, I just find the think experiment interesting.
For some unknown reason the US have avoided directly confronting Putin on all aspects of the Ukraine affair.
From the MH317 tragedy to the detailed satellite pictures of Russian hardware and military pouring into Ukraine the US do not publish anything, maybe they think Putin will really go nuclear or maybe the richest man in the world is promising them all good pensions or who knows....
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  #1278  
Old 15.02.2015, 23:01
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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For some unknown reason the US have avoided directly confronting Putin on all aspects of the Ukraine affair.
No dear, a country that wants to avoid confrontation does not announce lethal weapon delivery.

Now the answer to my own question: A rumor is far more efficient than evidence when you want to accuse somebody. That's PR course material for beginners, chapter 1.
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  #1279  
Old 15.02.2015, 23:09
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

German media were reporting that BND (Germany's Federal Intelligence Service) attributed guilt to the rebels using a captured Ukrainian Bug system. This is the least probable agency that would leak false accusations.
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  #1280  
Old 15.02.2015, 23:16
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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This is the least probable agency that would leak false accusations.
Rumor and no evidence. Exactly my point. They might be right or wrong, I don't know, but they don't prove anything, they just make announcements in the media. Nothing more. Thanks for confirming it. We agree, bring the Champagne
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