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  #1361  
Old 28.02.2015, 22:44
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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To understand any country with power, read Orwell, incl the US, Russia, China.... If you want to understand Google too, btw.

The texts also make a hypothesis that Russia has its objectives and ambitions way beyond small border wars and the ultimate goal is to get rid of Europe as it is now, and therefore it is actively supporting anti-EU parties in a drive to implode this project to weaken Europe.
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  #1362  
Old 28.02.2015, 23:14
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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He also said that if somebody wanted to kill him, they would have done it already
Apparently he spoke too soon...

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People get interviewed about him at the moment, so there are many things being said. Just don't pick and chose what serves your obsession only.
Saying publicly that you believe someone is planning to kill you, and then 3 days later you get shot in the back and die.... is just simply waved off as "yea, yea, people say all kinds of stuff"? Really?
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  #1363  
Old 28.02.2015, 23:26
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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The texts also make a hypothesis that Russia has its objectives and ambitions way beyond small border wars and the ultimate goal is to get rid of Europe as it is now, and therefore it is actively supporting anti-EU parties in a drive to implode this project to weaken Europe.
With the coming trans-atlantic treaty, Europe and the US will be one big unit. Russia wants to sabotage that exactly like most citizens of Europe want to but aren't let to. Why do you think the talks are highly secret and no declaration has ever been made by governments on the negotiations? Everybody takes care of their own interests, Russia like any European country and foremost like the US. It's international politics, remember?

Nemtsov has an old personal open bill with Putin. He also was part of the west founded agitations in 2011. From a Russian perspective, there is no doubt he is in Russia exactly like Yatsenyuk in Ukraine: Washington's little boy with old deep local political issues in the background. One can find that a good thing, but don't expect any Russian (or any national) government to let that happen. Why should the US be the only country in the world allowed to make foreign government at their will? Get real, people.

If Russia wants something, it's to avoid uni-polar super-power US to rule the world. The only way to get multipolarity is to either create Eurasia, which the US make impossible with any means possible (that's the real job of the NATO in Europe), or to make Europe an "inbetween" power with a strong Russia, which is the nationalist option Putin didn't want to take at the end of the 90ies but has no other choices than taking now for reasons intern to Russian politics.

Anything coming in the way of uni-polar super-power US has been and will be undermined by the US and a couple of followers for many reasons, some of which being more moral than others.

As for the reality of Russia and Ukraine, it is time for every body to stop doing as if Russia and Washington were controlling everything. They aren't. The milicias from the nationalist part are totally off leash and the Russian nationalists are not to be controlled by Putin or anybody else for that matter. The Russian reality of today is that the far-right national fanatics don't need an order from the Kreml' to kill whom ever they want. The Kreml' can do that too, but the one is not gleichbedeutend (synonymous?) with the other. On top of it, you can see how easy it is to blame this murder on Putin, so if somebody wants Putin to be on a burning chair, like the US, this murder is a blessing. It's Russia, how do you expect anything to be simple? The media need "simple", reality doesn't.

I don't want ultra-concervative nationalist sucking up to the church in power in Moscow, but I don't want a mafia puppet like Eltsin either. Same in Ukraine, nobody wanted a corrupted Yanukovich or Timoshenko or Yushchenko. But nobody really want a US puppet allied with nazis either. Ukrainians who voted for people like Klishko can't have anything positive to say about Yats and co, but they don't get the microphones to talk to either.
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  #1364  
Old 01.03.2015, 01:51
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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With the coming trans-atlantic treaty, Europe and the US will be one big unit. Russia wants to sabotage that exactly like most citizens of Europe want to but aren't let to. Why do you think the talks are highly secret and no declaration has ever been made by governments on the negotiations? Everybody takes care of their own interests, Russia like any European country and foremost like the US. It's international politics, remember?

Nemtsov has an old personal open bill with Putin. He also was part of the west founded agitations in 2011. From a Russian perspective, there is no doubt he is in Russia exactly like Yatsenyuk in Ukraine: Washington's little boy with old deep local political issues in the background. One can find that a good thing, but don't expect any Russian (or any national) government to let that happen. Why should the US be the only country in the world allowed to make foreign government at their will? Get real, people.

If Russia wants something, it's to avoid uni-polar super-power US to rule the world. The only way to get multipolarity is to either create Eurasia, which the US make impossible with any means possible (that's the real job of the NATO in Europe), or to make Europe an "inbetween" power with a strong Russia, which is the nationalist option Putin didn't want to take at the end of the 90ies but has no other choices than taking now for reasons intern to Russian politics.

Anything coming in the way of uni-polar super-power US has been and will be undermined by the US and a couple of followers for many reasons, some of which being more moral than others.

As for the reality of Russia and Ukraine, it is time for every body to stop doing as if Russia and Washington were controlling everything. They aren't. The milicias from the nationalist part are totally off leash and the Russian nationalists are not to be controlled by Putin or anybody else for that matter. The Russian reality of today is that the far-right national fanatics don't need an order from the Kreml' to kill whom ever they want. The Kreml' can do that too, but the one is not gleichbedeutend (synonymous?) with the other. On top of it, you can see how easy it is to blame this murder on Putin, so if somebody wants Putin to be on a burning chair, like the US, this murder is a blessing. It's Russia, how do you expect anything to be simple? The media need "simple", reality doesn't.

I don't want ultra-concervative nationalist sucking up to the church in power in Moscow, but I don't want a mafia puppet like Eltsin either. Same in Ukraine, nobody wanted a corrupted Yanukovich or Timoshenko or Yushchenko. But nobody really want a US puppet allied with nazis either. Ukrainians who voted for people like Klishko can't have anything positive to say about Yats and co, but they don't get the microphones to talk to either.
The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) will be a trade agreement; it does not form Europe and the US into one big unit. It will be similar to the Comprehensive Trade and Economic Agreement the EU recently signed with Canada, and the existing trade agreements with Korea, Chile, Mexico and South Africa.

EU is also negotiating such agreements with India, Malaysia, Singapore and other Asian countries.

There is also the EU-China Strategic Partnership, which is based on the 1985 EU China trade and cooperation agreement. EU is China’s biggest trading partner, while China is the EU’s largest source of imports and 2nd largest two way trading partner.

These are Trade agreements; nothing like the bilateral agreements between the EU and Switzerland.

About "Why do you think the talks are highly secret and no declaration has ever been made by governments on the negotiations?"

Actually there is an immense amount of information published by the EU on the TTIP, look here.

About "to make Europe an "inbetween" power with a strong Russia" The elephant in the room is that Russia is not strong. The Soviet Union was strong but Russia is a failing state due to the corruption that diverted money to a few oligarchs and the money was not used to invest in the development of Russia.
There are practically no manufactured goods in the top Russian exports, 66% of their exports are basically stuff that they dig up and ship.

33% of Russian exports are bought by the EU (China takes only 7%).
So what would be China's interest in forming Eurasia with Russia? China does far more business with the EU than it does with Russia and this will not change while the people in Russia have little money to spend on Chinese goods.

I just checked, only 2% of China exports go to Russia - why would China want to form a trading agreement?
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  #1365  
Old 01.03.2015, 02:12
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Apparently he spoke too soon...


Saying publicly that you believe someone is planning to kill you, and then 3 days later you get shot in the back and die.... is just simply waved off as "yea, yea, people say all kinds of stuff"? Really?
The only thing that makes me a bit cautious in this case it's the fact that Putin didn't need this assassinate right now, it's a really bad moment given the fact that he's already "demonised" and under "global" surveillance... But of course, one could argue that guys like this don't really care or will find a solution to cover it up.

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Why should the US be the only country in the world allowed to make foreign government at their will? Get real, people.

.
Why should any country be allowed to make and brake foreign governments at their will? But of course, we're talking for the sake of talking now.
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  #1366  
Old 01.03.2015, 11:20
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Of course: Romania.

Leonie, is Russia doing well, economically? Again, I want to know this from average people's perspective, if you are Russian you must know. Are Russians happy with how things are? Doesn't disturb them a bit to know that all the oligarchy are doing huuuge money on resources that should be used to develop their country? Aren't Russians tired of this, twenty something years from the fall of communism, to see all the patriotic slogans repeated over and over again? Well, I thought they were.
Again, from other people's perspective it's more important to progress in terms of justice, freedom of press, state institutions etc. than to bother with what the neighbours are doing. I don't like this type of mentality - it must be the neighbours, the Americans (the Russians), possibly the Jews, goodness knows who else for all our idiosyncrasies...
As I gathered from your comments, it seems that the Russian psyche is anchored in other things for the moment. (don't blame anyone here, mind you, because I understand how things are working)
I looked it up -- in Romania in 2014 alone 1,138 leading public figures, including top politicians, businessmen, judges and prosecutors, were convicted by the National Anticorruption Directorate. Wow. Whatever the intentions of this campaign are, the history tells us that this kind of cleanings do not end well. In any case, if you need to have such radical measures 25 years after the collapse of the communist block and several years after joining EU, this has nothing to do with the former USSR and its friends, Russia etc not any more.

Re your question about the Russian feeling on economy, I can tell you one thing -- nobody wants to go back to the 1990s. Putin has such a strong support exactly because of the economic misery of the 1990s, when Russia was under the management of the Western economic advisers.

Of course not everybody is happy about how the things are economically, socially and financially. Show me a country without problems. But the way you state the question about Russia -- please, you can put any country in that statement. Let's try

Doesn't disturb Americans a bit to know that all the oligarchy are doing huuuge money on resources that should be used to develop their country?

Doesn't disturb Germans a bit to know that all the oligarchy are doing huuuge money on resources that should be used to develop their country?

Doesn't disturb Romanians a bit to know that all the oligarchy are doing huuuge money on resources that should be used to develop their country?

Doesn't disturb people in EU a bit to know that all the oligarchy are doing huuuge money on resources that should be used to develop their country?

Fits well I think. This is not a problem of Russia only, don't you think? Or do you think that it doesn't apply to these places?
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  #1367  
Old 01.03.2015, 20:54
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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The milicias from the nationalist part are totally off leash and the Russian nationalists are not to be controlled by Putin or anybody else for that matter. The Russian reality of today is that the far-right national fanatics don't need an order from the Kreml' to kill whom ever they want. The Kreml' can do that too, but the one is not gleichbedeutend (synonymous?) with the other. On top of it, you can see how easy it is to blame this murder on Putin, so if somebody wants Putin to be on a burning chair, like the US, this murder is a blessing. It's Russia, how do you expect anything to be simple? The media need "simple", reality doesn't.
The last year Putin has turned up the "nationalistic" volume to 11, to rally everyone around him and against the "facists" in Ukraine. It's worked for him to a degree, but the down-side is, as you have said, that he's released a monster that even he can't control. If the killing was not ordered by Putin directly, and it turns out to be right-wing nationalists, Putin can be still seen as being indirectly responsible.

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I just checked, only 2% of China exports go to Russia - why would China want to form a trading agreement?
I've seen the Chinese products sold in the Russian markets and the quality is unbelieveable. The toys smell like they are painted in toxic chemicals, and fall apart as soon as the package is opened. Stitching in the clothes fall out within the month. Electronics don't fare much better. The sad thing is most "average" people can't afford anything of better quality
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  #1368  
Old 01.03.2015, 21:00
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I looked it up -- in Romania in 2014 alone 1,138 leading public figures, including top politicians, businessmen, judges and prosecutors, were convicted by the National Anticorruption Directorate. Wow. Whatever the intentions of this campaign are, the history tells us that this kind of cleanings do not end well. In any case, if you need to have such radical measures 25 years after the collapse of the communist block and several years after joining EU, this has nothing to do with the former USSR and its friends, Russia etc not any more.

Re your question about the Russian feeling on economy, I can tell you one thing -- nobody wants to go back to the 1990s. Putin has such a strong support exactly because of the economic misery of the 1990s, when Russia was under the management of the Western economic advisers.

Of course not everybody is happy about how the things are economically, socially and financially. Show me a country without problems. But the way you state the question about Russia -- please, you can put any country in that statement. Let's try

Doesn't disturb Americans a bit to know that all the oligarchy are doing huuuge money on resources that should be used to develop their country?

Doesn't disturb Germans a bit to know that all the oligarchy are doing huuuge money on resources that should be used to develop their country?

Doesn't disturb Romanians a bit to know that all the oligarchy are doing huuuge money on resources that should be used to develop their country?

Doesn't disturb people in EU a bit to know that all the oligarchy are doing huuuge money on resources that should be used to develop their country?

Fits well I think. This is not a problem of Russia only, don't you think? Or do you think that it doesn't apply to these places?
No dear, precisely. It has nthing to do with Russia. It has to do with our own immunological system which finally started to function. The strongest viruses were inside. Without them, nothing was possible. We can't blame for ever the Russians, the Americans, the neighbours, the Jews or who knows what comes at the bottom.
I started to suspect we are on our own. Wonderful.
Nobody said it would be simple and fast.
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  #1369  
Old 01.03.2015, 21:02
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I looked it up -- in Romania in 2014 alone 1,138 leading public figures, including top politicians, businessmen, judges and prosecutors, were convicted by the National Anticorruption Directorate. Wow. Whatever the intentions of this campaign are, the history tells us that this kind of cleanings do not end well. In any case, if you need to have such radical measures 25 years after the collapse of the communist block and several years after joining EU, this has nothing to do with the former USSR and its friends, Russia etc not any more.

Re your question about the Russian feeling on economy, I can tell you one thing -- nobody wants to go back to the 1990s. Putin has such a strong support exactly because of the economic misery of the 1990s, when Russia was under the management of the Western economic advisers.

Of course not everybody is happy about how the things are economically, socially and financially. Show me a country without problems. But the way you state the question about Russia -- please, you can put any country in that statement. Let's try

Doesn't disturb Americans a bit to know that all the oligarchy are doing huuuge money on resources that should be used to develop their country?

Doesn't disturb Germans a bit to know that all the oligarchy are doing huuuge money on resources that should be used to develop their country?

Doesn't disturb Romanians a bit to know that all the oligarchy are doing huuuge money on resources that should be used to develop their country?

Doesn't disturb people in EU a bit to know that all the oligarchy are doing huuuge money on resources that should be used to develop their country?

Fits well I think. This is not a problem of Russia only, don't you think? Or do you think that it doesn't apply to these places?
About
"Doesn't disturb Americans a bit to know that all the oligarchy are doing huuuge money on resources that should be used to develop their country?

Doesn't disturb Germans a bit to know that all the oligarchy are doing huuuge money on resources that should be used to develop their country?

Doesn't disturb people in EU a bit to know that all the oligarchy are doing huuuge money on resources that should be used to develop their country?"

No because unlike Russia all these countries have successful and growing economies due to internal investments.
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  #1370  
Old 01.03.2015, 21:39
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Doesn't disturb Romanians a bit to know that all the oligarchy are doing huuuge money on resources that should be used to develop their country?
Regarding "huuuge money on resources"...what resources is does Romania have that they are getting rich on?

...and Romania has had some really bad corruption, even in post-Soviet years, I do hope they are cleaning it up finally.
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  #1371  
Old 02.03.2015, 01:51
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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The texts also make a hypothesis that Russia has its objectives and ambitions way beyond small border wars and the ultimate goal is to get rid of Europe as it is now, and therefore it is actively supporting anti-EU parties in a drive to implode this project to weaken Europe.


Analysis is difficult and forecasts even more. Let us hope that the objectives and aspirations of Russia are BEYOND some border issues and up to its old desire to reach WARM SEAS. The Crimea is now Russian and Bulgaria traditionally pro Russian. In the way now only is Saloniki. Greece may be up for an appeasement about sharing Saloniki with Russia (Bulgaria to join Russia). Ferryboats will get out of Rostov and Sevastopol to Bulgarian seaports at least 30 times per day, and Salonikiev will be the Russian port on the Med -- on one side civilian and on the other side the base of the new Russian-Med Eskadra
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  #1372  
Old 02.03.2015, 08:53
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Regarding "huuuge money on resources"...what resources is does Romania have that they are getting rich on?

...and Romania has had some really bad corruption, even in post-Soviet years, I do hope they are cleaning it up finally.
Funny.
Esto, don't tell me Ukraine doesn't have endemic corruption or that is better than in Romania.. Some of us say it loudly, some cover it under the rug. It's OK, I don't mind. Guess who is going to lose in the end.

Every country in EU has corruption, some even bad corruption - Greece (even worse than Ro and Bg, fancy that ), Italy with its Mafia states in state and the Berlusconi style politicians who are prosecuted but never go to jail, the list can go on. All the other Eastern block countries also, even if they haven't been under such a severe surveillance as the Ro and Bg. I would really like to check out all their contracts with state, and how the EU money were spent. I bet I can find lots of things if I look carefully. Whatever, I don't care.
Is it a witch hunt as many voices started to wonder back home? I don't think so. The corruption is there because you can see it: sports halls in villages that don't really need one because demographics trends are obvious, unnecessary street repairs, unnecessary re-paintings of buildings, enormous cost per km of motorway (contracts with American companies), contracts with the state that were attributed not only to foreign companies (Microsoft in schools is a huge scandal for the moment) but also local ones without risk evaluations and other "details" like that, in short, everyone wants to do business with the state.
I can testify that if you do business other than with the state, and pay your taxes, you'll never have any problems with the NAD.

Edit: according to Swissleaks a few Romanian businessmen have over 1.3 billions only in the Swiss branch of British bank HSBC. Hmmm. Of course Russian businessmen are much richer, but that's not the point.

Last edited by greenmount; 02.03.2015 at 09:48.
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  #1373  
Old 02.03.2015, 11:28
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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As for the reality of Russia and Ukraine, it is time for every body to stop doing as if Russia and Washington were controlling everything. They aren't.
I agree with you on that. There is far too much public belief that when something happens that it happened according to somebody's master plan. Nobody seems to believe that things just happen anymore. Sometimes by accident, sometime out of the control of larger powers.

As for Nemtsov's murder, I (like anyone else) can't say for certain who did/didn't do it, however I find it very odd that a political motive (ie: any involvement by Putin or his party) has already been ruled out on the very first day, especially since Nemtsov was such an outspoken critic of Putin (and even said he thought Putin may kill him!). Shouldn't any worthwhile investigation should at least say something like "we are keeping all possibilities open"?

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As for the reality of Russia and Ukraine, it is time for every body to stop doing as if Russia and Washington were controlling everything. They aren't.
...but for those who do think that the US is controlling everything, I'll throw this one out there: what if Putin is actually being kept in power by the CIA? ( ) What if the CIA sees all possible alternatives to Putin as actually being worse than Putin himself? Considering that Russia is awash in nationalistic fervor, there are plenty of other possible leaders who would take a more hard-line approach to the West. And what if Putin is seen as kind of a Saddam Hussein by the CIA? If you remove him, then the country would just fall into chaos and become even worse than when he was there? (and Iraq only had non-existant WMD, Russia has actually verified nukes!)

So next time you pro-Russian people see Putin on TV talking about how bad the USA is, consider that he may actually just be a lying, hypocritical CIA stooge working together with Obama in the background ...and next time you pro-US people see Putin talking on TV about how evil the USA is, consider the alternatives to him might actually be much worse
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  #1374  
Old 05.03.2015, 08:57
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

I didn't have such a good laugh in a loong time. It's bad when you're corrupted, but it's worse when you want to get rid of it.....because you know, you might disturb some...interests. Let alone the obvious bias, poor journalistic documentation and inaccuracies, I cringe when I read all sorts of pseudo-know-all-ers. Who have opinions (for which they're obviously well payed) that are published.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/05/op...av=bottom-well
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  #1375  
Old 05.03.2015, 20:29
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Nadia Savchenko is the best known of some 30 Ukrainians who were fighting on the Govt. side and somehow got magicked into Russian prisons and the Russians now refuse to release them.

Nadia is being charged with the death of two Russian journalists who were hit in a mortar attack in E. Ukraine. The evidence is quite thin and contradictory....
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  #1376  
Old 06.03.2015, 09:55
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

It's a masterpiece of Russian propaganda, nevertheless, I couldn't help thinking there's so much truth in all they say. Of course they present only the good part of communism and conveniently forget what Russian occupation really meant. But, economically: pay attention to the Baltic republics, now part of E.U. It's the same what we have back home...truth is the end of communism caught Easterners completely unprepared for what has been following, there was no plan to help most of these countries have at least a smoother transition, they were literally, cynically sold piece by piece and their populations were forced into mass immigration.



I read what European Commission has recommended to Moldova to help them on their way to Europe (yeah darlings, they've always been there whether you'd like to admit it or not)...all the E.U. officials can do is endlessly blubber about...corruption. Dooh! Of course corruption is a real problem and danger, there is no secret all the ex-communist countries have this problem.... but...why don't they say anything about...jobs? How to protect their jobs at home, what kind of investments to receive in their country...opening 1000 shopping malls is not a good investment. Ah, I'm a real non-optimistic person re. "democratisation" of the East etc etc etc. E.U. is a non-democratic institution itself, with different sorts of members. Yet, they still have people wanting to join them. No probs, the rich will be richer and the poor will be poorer.
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Old 06.03.2015, 13:46
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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It's a masterpiece of Russian propaganda
русская сволочь. They've destroyed half of my country and stalled its development for half a century. Ебать их!
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Old 06.03.2015, 15:02
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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They've destroyed half of my country and stalled its development for half a century.
Well, I personally prefer to think of present times, not of what could have been without communism/Russians. And the present doesn't look good.

In other news, this is the E.U. who was barking at the Great Bear something about sanctions, things, stuff...
https://euobserver.com/foreign/127896
Enough said about how things really function.
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Old 06.03.2015, 15:31
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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It's a masterpiece of Russian propaganda, nevertheless, I couldn't help thinking there's so much truth in all they say. Of course they present only the good part of communism and conveniently forget what Russian occupation really meant. But, economically: pay attention to the Baltic republics, now part of E.U. It's the same what we have back home...truth is the end of communism caught Easterners completely unprepared for what has been following, there was no plan to help most of these countries have at least a smoother transition, they were literally, cynically sold piece by piece and their populations were forced into mass immigration.



I read what European Commission has recommended to Moldova to help them on their way to Europe (yeah darlings, they've always been there whether you'd like to admit it or not)...all the E.U. officials can do is endlessly blubber about...corruption. Dooh! Of course corruption is a real problem and danger, there is no secret all the ex-communist countries have this problem.... but...why don't they say anything about...jobs? How to protect their jobs at home, what kind of investments to receive in their country...opening 1000 shopping malls is not a good investment. Ah, I'm a real non-optimistic person re. "democratisation" of the East etc etc etc. E.U. is a non-democratic institution itself, with different sorts of members. Yet, they still have people wanting to join them. No probs, the rich will be richer and the poor will be poorer.
About " and their populations were forced into mass immigration. " Well they can now!
They no longer have to cross mine fields guarded by snipers.
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Old 06.03.2015, 18:00
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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About " and their populations were forced into mass immigration. " Well they can now!
They no longer have to cross mine fields guarded by snipers.
Are you serious? The vast majority of people doesn't want to immigrate, they are forced by deteriorating living standards to do so. Imagine during communism you were a simple worker in a factory, but you had an apartment, even a car, could afford a holiday per year at the sea or in the mountains. Now all it's gone and you barely afford to pay your phone, heating, electricity bills, clothes, food etc and at one point you can't do even that. Please don't tell me people are mad about working on constructions sites, without insurance and even appreciation in the host countries, confronted with open racism and discrimination. (those immigrants who steal our jobs, even though we're so lazy we would never bother...because hey, for us life is much more easier and we're ENTITLED)
Prestige immigration/migration is another thing, but not everyone is in this situation.
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