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  #141  
Old 17.03.2014, 16:24
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Are you referring to Putin
He might look like that to you (an entertainer), but in that part of the world patriotism has always been linked with almost mystical beliefs in the disinterested power of the autocrat looking out for the best interests of the nation.

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Seriously, you don't honestly think Putin is planning on starting a nuclear war, do you?

.
That's absurd....

Last edited by greenmount; 17.03.2014 at 16:43.
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  #142  
Old 17.03.2014, 20:31
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Violet Elizabeth Bott has spoken:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ficials-crimea



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  #143  
Old 17.03.2014, 20:55
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Er, yeah. So what? The words of Rush Limbaugh reach millions of households. He's still a professional gobshite.


Seriously, you don't honestly think Putin is planning on starting a nuclear war, do you?


A bit of perspective wouldn't go amiss here. Ukraine is expendible. Obama is a coward and the leaders of the EU are more interested in lining their pockets than making a stand.


There's no reason to have a war, because there's nothing worth fighting over.
About "Seriously, you don't honestly think Putin is planning on starting a nuclear war, do you?"
No I don't. I do think he is an arrogant nutter who gets a "hard on" walking on the cliff edge and posturing. The risk is someone on his side thinks he is supporting official policy by launching something.... and then the situation will escalate something horrible missus!
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  #144  
Old 17.03.2014, 21:07
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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...
Seriously, you don't honestly think Putin is planning on starting a nuclear war, do you?


A bit of perspective wouldn't go amiss here. Ukraine is expendible. Obama is a coward and the leaders of the EU are more interested in lining their pockets than making a stand.


There's no reason to have a war, because there's nothing worth fighting over.
Not exact map of the bases but the message is correct
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  #145  
Old 17.03.2014, 21:55
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Not exact map of the bases but the message is correct
That's some pretty deep insight there Leonie.

Had it occurred to you that after the fall of the Iron Curtain that it was the former members of the Warsaw Pact that requested to join NATO's Partnership for Peace program? No one headquartered in Brussels occupied a sovereign nation's territory and forced an illegally appointed council to ignore a peoples' democracy.

These nations (Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic etc.) had a choice. They chose not only a Western European oriented defense organization, but a way more democratic way of handling their own internal politics. There is no justification for what Russia has done in Crimea, whatever the historical aspect was. Sure Russia feels politically challenged by the west, why wouldn't it? The situation in your average Russian town isn't exactly a picture of thriving prosperity and modern day culture and technology is it? When you take a peek over the fence at what western Europe is enjoying, frustration sets in. When you aren't willing to empower your own people and allow democracy to breathe, you stifle the voices of dissent and put on a powerful display of egoism and arrogance to defy the artificial enemy you've created to avert attention away from your own political failings instead.

Hence the occupation of Crimea. Unfortunately, Ukraine has been the unfortunate victim in this geophysical game of foreign chess. The West is scared to act because the perpetrator may feel cornered and might well act irrationally. What happens next? More meaningless threats of sanctions from the west and more Russian posturing. Anything else would lose Putin national face and that we know won't happen any time soon.
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  #146  
Old 17.03.2014, 21:57
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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No one headquartered in Brussels occupied a sovereign nation's territory and forced an illegally appointed council to ignore a peoples' democracy.
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  #147  
Old 17.03.2014, 23:19
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Or maybe US shale gas exports will reduce Russia's premium it charges for its gas and its impoverished society will collapse while all the petro-rubles are spent on building weapons.
Russia will always find markets for its natural gas, To describe the Russian society as "impoverished" is wrong. Putin in fact could tell the Russians the slogan of Harald Macmillan you have never had it as good as now and Vladimir Putin will NOT spend all the petro-rubels for armaments-production.

He since taking over from Yeltsin has carefully built up the economy and the armed forces and now has regained the Crimea. He in the past three years has vastly expanded the infrastructure in the Krasnodar-Region which includes Sochi, not least with an extensive network of highways. In his typical way he established an infrastructure which is good for both touristic and military purposes.

The man is not a foolhardy adventurer, but an ice-cold planner and strategist. This is what needs to be borne in mind
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  #148  
Old 17.03.2014, 23:24
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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They still have to (re)build the bridge.
This is exactly what I am wondering about, Whether there are car- and rail-ferries, etc. Clear is that to build bridges will have priority for Russia right now for sure
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  #149  
Old 17.03.2014, 23:45
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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That's some pretty deep insight there Leonie.

Had it occurred to you that after the fall of the Iron Curtain that it was the former members of the Warsaw Pact that requested to join NATO's Partnership for Peace program? No one headquartered in Brussels occupied a sovereign nation's territory and forced an illegally appointed council to ignore a peoples' democracy.

These nations (Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic etc.) had a choice. They chose not only a Western European oriented defense organization, but a way more democratic way of handling their own internal politics. There is no justification for what Russia has done in Crimea, whatever the historical aspect was. Sure Russia feels politically challenged by the west, why wouldn't it? The situation in your average Russian town isn't exactly a picture of thriving prosperity and modern day culture and technology is it? When you take a peek over the fence at what western Europe is enjoying, frustration sets in. When you aren't willing to empower your own people and allow democracy to breathe, you stifle the voices of dissent and put on a powerful display of egoism and arrogance to defy the artificial enemy you've created to avert attention away from your own political failings instead.

Hence the occupation of Crimea. Unfortunately, Ukraine has been the unfortunate victim in this geophysical game of foreign chess. The West is scared to act because the perpetrator may feel cornered and might well act irrationally. What happens next? More meaningless threats of sanctions from the west and more Russian posturing. Anything else would lose Putin national face and that we know won't happen any time soon.
True, the situation in the average Russian town isn't exactly a picture of thriving prosperity and modern day culture and technology -- but EU is not one rich Germany either. Take a look at the newer EU states and hope that in the end of the long and expensive reform process Ukraine maybe will live like Greece -- if they are lucky.

The coup that happened in Kiev scared the hell out of many people in Ukraine. The Ukrainian far right groups have been very much involved in the revolution. One of the first things the new government did was to change the law which guaranteed equal rights to Russian and other languages. Take a look at the Freedom party and the Right Sector and see for yourself what they stand for.

Hence the occupation of Crimea. Actually this is the annexing. People of Crimea have voted and decided where they want to be, and thousands rally in the eastern cities of Ukraine in support of Crimea and Russia.

Last edited by leonie; 18.03.2014 at 00:54.
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  #150  
Old 17.03.2014, 23:49
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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http://www.kosovothanksyou.com/?map=1

The Kosovari got independence with the help of Bill Clinton and Micheline Calmy-Rey and get slowly but steadily recognized
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  #151  
Old 18.03.2014, 00:11
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Not exact map of the bases but the message is correct
Well if I was a country where the Russians marched in uninvited, stayed for 50 years (also uninvited) and brutally put down any attempts at democracy then I might well think a military base or two is a good idea?
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  #152  
Old 18.03.2014, 00:26
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Russia will always find markets for its natural gas, To describe the Russian society as "impoverished" is wrong. Putin in fact could tell the Russians the slogan of Harald Macmillan you have never had it as good as now and Vladimir Putin will NOT spend all the petro-rubels for armaments-production.

He since taking over from Yeltsin has carefully built up the economy and the armed forces and now has regained the Crimea. He in the past three years has vastly expanded the infrastructure in the Krasnodar-Region which includes Sochi, not least with an extensive network of highways. In his typical way he established an infrastructure which is good for both touristic and military purposes.

The man is not a foolhardy adventurer, but an ice-cold planner and strategist. This is what needs to be borne in mind
About "He since taking over from Yeltsin has carefully built up the economy..."

Sadly not any more, See here

Quote "Russia’s economy grew at less than half the previous year’s pace in 2013, missing economist forecasts as investment fell amid a record slump in Europe. Officials warned the outlook remains weak for this quarter.

Gross domestic product advanced 1.3 percent, the least since a 2009 recession, compared with 3.4 percent in 2012, the Moscow-based Federal Statistics Service reports its first estimate in an e-mailed statement.

The $2 trillion economy decelerated for a fourth year as consumer spending, the mainstay of Russia’s recovery, failed to make up for sagging investment and a drop in global demand for oil and natural gas.

“This destroys any hope left about a consumption-driven economy in Russia,” Vladimir Miklashevsky, an economist at Danske Bank A/S in Helsinki, said “Sustainable economic growth in Russia will only be possible through expansion of private investments
.”

About "The man is not a foolhardy adventurer, but an ice-cold planner and strategist. This is what needs to be borne in mind"
For me he has taken too big a risk over Crim. If the West really manage to agree some proper sanctions (I did write if) then Russia will be facing an economic collapse.

The rouble already dropped 25% in the last year so the "man in the street" is already seeing cost increases on imported goods.

Occupying another country is not cheap to do and it is not as if Crim. has a lot of liquid assets that the Russians could seize and sell.
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  #153  
Old 18.03.2014, 00:57
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
Er, yeah. So what? The words of Rush Limbaugh reach millions of households. He's still a professional gobshite.


Seriously, you don't honestly think Putin is planning on starting a nuclear war, do you?


A bit of perspective wouldn't go amiss here. Ukraine is expendible. Obama is a coward and the leaders of the EU are more interested in lining their pockets than making a stand.


There's no reason to have a war, because there's nothing worth fighting over.
Seems the US are planning to upgrade their nuclear weapons in Europe starting next Spring, link;

http://focusonline.co/1iVSA8V
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  #154  
Old 18.03.2014, 01:06
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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http://www.kosovothanksyou.com/?map=1

The Kosovari got independence with the help of Bill Clinton and Micheline Calmy-Rey and get slowly but steadily recognized
The Crimeans got independence with the help of Vladimir Putin and could not care less whether they will be recognized.

And again, who are these 'Kosovari' that you keep mumbling about?

Albanians?
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  #155  
Old 18.03.2014, 01:10
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Crimea only had 95% of the vote to join Russia? In North Korea, they get 100%, somebody in Crimea is getting lazy...

Anyway, as "Uncle Joe" always said:


Hhhhm.... what does uncle Joe say about Kosovo Albanian referendum for independence.

This one was surely 'legal'. Right?

How many voted for independence? 200% ?

Who counted their votes? Uncle Bill (Clinton)?
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  #156  
Old 18.03.2014, 01:20
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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That's OK then... because what Russia is doing on another sovereign nation's soil is er... em... ah...
http://www.cuttingedge.org/News/n1269.cfm

NATO LAUNCHES FIRST-EVER ATTACK ON A SOVEREIGN NATION -- SERBIA

NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY BEING ATTACKED

#1 GOAL -- UNITED NATIONS RULE OVER SOVEREIGN NATIONS

http://www.emperors-clothes.com/arti...set/bisset.htm

The NATO bombing: an assault on sovereignty

https://www.google.ch/search?q=nato+...overeign+state

"nato attack on a sovereign state"

About 1,500,000 results (0.41 seconds)

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report...sharif-1913819

US drone attacks violate Pakistan's sovereignty: Nawaz Sharif

and so on...
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  #157  
Old 18.03.2014, 06:26
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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True, the situation in the average Russian town isn't exactly a picture of thriving prosperity and modern day culture and technology -- but EU is not one rich Germany either. Take a look at the newer EU states and hope that in the end of the long and expensive reform process Ukraine maybe will live like Greece -- if they are lucky.
Well, I hope they don't imagine that there will be tons of money thrown into the game to help Ukraine (actually, let's be honest...E.U. didn't quite invite it there), as it was/is in the case of Greece (or any of the PIIGS, for that matter)?
If they choose democracy (or anything that resembles to it more than what they used to have before) they will pay their way through (yes, that will be expensive but not only money wise ), no doubt about it. Because the "East" can take any other sh3t of history with less fuss and more discipline (ask IMF...), after all they did it for 50 years.
But they should be able to decide for themselves...and as I see it, of course I might be wrong though, that is not gonna happen.

Last edited by greenmount; 18.03.2014 at 06:41.
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  #158  
Old 18.03.2014, 07:12
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Well, I hope they don't imagine that there will be tons of money thrown into the game to help Ukraine (actually, let's be honest...E.U. didn't quite invite it there), as it was/is in the case of Greece (or any of the PIIGS, for that matter)?
If they choose democracy (or anything that resembles to it more than what they used to have before) they will pay their way through (yes, that will be expensive but not only money wise ), no doubt about it. Because the "East" can take any other sh3t of history with less fuss and more discipline (ask IMF...), after all they did it for 50 years.
But they should be able to decide for themselves...and as I see it, of course I might be wrong though, that is not gonna happen.
That is a good point -- EU didn't invite it there.

What do you mean by "if they choose democracy"? Do you know what kind of instruments of democracy they already have had in Ukraine before the revolution? And why the newly installed oligarchs would be more democratic than the overthrown ones?
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  #159  
Old 18.03.2014, 09:18
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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The Crimeans got independence with the help of Vladimir Putin and could not care less whether they will be recognized.

And again, who are these 'Kosovari' that you keep mumbling about?

Albanians?
Did the "Crimeans" get independence or did they become a satellite state of Russia complete with the Russian army in situ?
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Old 18.03.2014, 09:29
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Did the "Crimeans" get independence or did they become a satellite state of Russia complete with the Russian army in situ?

Did the "Kosovars" get indep... oh, never mind...
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