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  #221  
Old 21.07.2014, 15:57
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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What is most un-credible is that with all the "eyes in the sky" over the zone - and I'm hinting at western reconnaissance (ehr..spying) satellites etc - nobody in-the-know had noticed a missile launcher or similar weapons (i.e. AACs)..
I do not understand your point? I am sure the western reconnaissance had noticed a missile launcher but so what? They could hardly send in a NATO jet to take it out could they?
Even if they had not noticed it there was anyway the hard evidence of a military transport getting shot down at 6,000m some days before - so we all knew they had advanced missiles in play.


Is this your answer to my question "About "it is the West that stands to gain, disproportionately, from such an incident." How will the West gain exactly?"?
If so I do not understand how your answer explains the benefit to the West of allegedly shooting down a civil airliner.




It is a two way street; if Russia no longer has a regular supply of petro dollars to use to pay for their imports then they have the challenge of how to pay for their imports.


Gold is no longer a viable option which is why they no longer use it to back currencies. Of course, if Russia did go this route and the rumours of physical gold shortages are true then the price of gold would go through the ceiling
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  #222  
Old 21.07.2014, 16:14
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Although he probably feels the event is unfortunate, Putin almost certainly doesn't care about the circumstances or repercussions of MH17. He isn't saying or doing much because he is keeping his eye on the ball: that being the slow but inevitable implosion of the Ukraine.

He is playing a provocative waiting game, constantly irritating the Ukraine in an attempt to lure them to the point of making a fatal offensive, which will give him the excuse to invade the eastern provinces and re-draw some borders. He has written off 300 innocent souls as collateral damage, as he has proven he doesn't care what western governments think or do, as he knows they haven't got the guts to act so far away from home. Europe especially has shown extreme incompetence and lethargy.
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  #223  
Old 21.07.2014, 16:17
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Looks like Russia is about to bring their own evidence in.

"Russian Defense Ministry says Ukrainian warplane flew within 3-5 km of Malaysian passenger jet, asks for explanation from Kiev."

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-p...ussia-ukraine/

There have been a lot of rumors going in Russian media about a warplane seen next to the passenger jet. I am waiting for any evidence of the surface to air strike, any satellite images form Russia, China or US but until now there has been none. And now the Russians are officially talking about the warplane -- let's see if they have any evidence of that.
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  #224  
Old 21.07.2014, 16:29
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Another very sad and frustrating development is that the Ukrainians, who had already refused a truce supposedly called by the rebels, are now pressing forward with an attack, according to BBC News just a few minutes ago, on Donetsk itself.
And the pro-Russian rebels have just claimed to shot down another plane today:

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LUHANSK, July 21 /ITAR-TASS/. Self-defense fighters of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People’s Republic (LPR) have shot down a Ukrainian attack aircraft and three tanks, the militia said on Monday.
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741627
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  #225  
Old 21.07.2014, 16:35
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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And the pro-Russian rebels have just claimed to shot down another plane today:


http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741627
This plane was an attack aircraft and probably was flying just above their heads. The rebels have shot down several of these before, including one with about 50 Ukrainian soldiers aboard.
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  #226  
Old 21.07.2014, 16:50
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Hm.
The russkis don't want to be blown up from friendly fire, if they can avoid it.
Military aircraft are fitted with a radio beacon that tells missiles they are friendly. The MIG fighter pilot who was shot down at the same time as Gary Powers had not updated the code in his beacon.

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Looks like Russia is about to bring their own evidence in.
Interesting to see the evidence and the reasons they took so long to produce it.

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I cannot see for the life of me where deliberately shooting down a civilian aircraft which was from a region that is in no way involved with the current conflict would have any advantage for anybody involved.
Very true, or to put it another way; it is now 4 days since the incident - who has benefited and how?
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  #227  
Old 21.07.2014, 16:53
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Interesting to see the evidence and the reasons they took so long to produce it.
They had to fabricate it first
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  #228  
Old 21.07.2014, 16:53
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Very true, or to put it another way; it is now 4 days since the incident - who has benefited and how?

The Ukraine Gov are the big winners (at the moment) the world is busy blaming russia while they quietly get on blowing the shit outta there own people
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  #229  
Old 21.07.2014, 16:54
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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This plane was an attack aircraft and probably was flying just above their heads. The rebels have shot down several of these before, including one with about 50 Ukrainian soldiers aboard.
Well, let's wait for an official confirmation first. Remember, the last time ITAR-TASS announced pro-Russian rebels shot down a Ukrainian military plane, it turned out to actually be the Malaysian fight:

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DONETSK, July 17. /ITAR-TASS/. Militiamen of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) brought down a military transport Antonov-26 (An-26) plane of the Ukrainian Air Force on the outskirts of the town of Torez, eyewitnesses said.
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741164
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  #230  
Old 21.07.2014, 16:57
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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"Russian Defense Ministry says Ukrainian warplane flew within 3-5 km of Malaysian passenger jet, asks for explanation from Kiev."
Perhaps it was the intended target.

Tom
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  #231  
Old 21.07.2014, 16:59
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

I think the west really needs to keep well clear of this one, lets face it, if the gas pipeline didn't run through Ukraine no one would give a toss about it.

Let russia and ukraine sort this one out for themselves, the potential for this to end very badly indeed for the world is just too great.
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  #232  
Old 21.07.2014, 17:05
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Wow, pretty damming evidence. A Russian blogger has a video of the BUK being driven back into Russia on Saturday. Not grainy cellphone video, but high resolution with clear images of street signs, license plate numbers, etc.. This one is going to be really difficult for Russia to deny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MduT109qfP0

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...a-9618115.html
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  #233  
Old 21.07.2014, 17:09
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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...Interesting to see the evidence and the reasons they took so long to produce ....
Please remind me about any other evidence that has been produced so far

By the way, they didn't have to produce any evidence yet -- last time I checked it was up to the accusers to show the evidence, and the accused is supposed to be considered innocent until proven guilty.
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  #234  
Old 21.07.2014, 17:11
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Wow, pretty damming evidence. A Russian blogger has a video of the BUK being driven back into Russia on Saturday. Not grainy cellphone video, but high resolution with clear images of street signs, license plate numbers, etc.. This one is going to be really difficult for Russia to deny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MduT109qfP0

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...a-9618115.html

all it shows is 2 lorries carrying a covered load???
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  #235  
Old 21.07.2014, 17:39
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I think the west really needs to keep well clear of this one, lets face it, if the gas pipeline didn't run through Ukraine no one would give a toss about it.

Let russia and ukraine sort this one out for themselves, the potential for this to end very badly indeed for the world is just too great.
Exactly. MH17 could turn out to be the aviation equivalent to Franz Ferdinand.
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  #236  
Old 21.07.2014, 17:39
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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all it shows is 2 lorries carrying a covered load???
Hard to say, I guess a military expert would be able to confirm by the outline. In any case, Russian military moving around covered military equipment just inside the Russian border where the crash happened does look highly suspicious.
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  #237  
Old 21.07.2014, 17:42
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

There we go...

Russian Ministry of Defence briefing on MH-17 Boeing 777 aircrash -- in Russian and English. I didn't watch it myself yet, let's see what they got to say.

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  #238  
Old 21.07.2014, 17:43
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Hard to say, I guess a military expert would be able to confirm by the outline. In any case, Russian military moving around covered military equipment just inside the Russian border where the crash happened does look highly suspicious.

agreed, but its not proof of anything, people are seeing what they want to see, if you look at whats happened in the cold light of day Russia has far more to lose then anyone else, the Ukraine gov has the most to 'win' that's assuming it wasn't just a terrible terrible mistake by a trigger happy private
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  #239  
Old 21.07.2014, 17:49
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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There we go...

Russian Ministry of Defence briefing on MH-17 Boeing 777 aircrash -- in Russian and English. I didn't watch it myself yet, let's see what they got to say.

When you say "in Russian and English": for 30 minutes the journalist asks questions in English and he replies in Russian
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  #240  
Old 21.07.2014, 17:57
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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When you say "in Russian and English": for 30 minutes the journalist asks questions in English and he replies in Russian
No, the military man is talking in Russian and a woman is translating to English.
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