Ah, ok, got it. But they present two conflicting theories. First they seem to insinuate that what they believe to be a Ukraine military plane nearby shot it down, then they insinuate the BUK with missiles missing in the YouTube video was actually shot from Ukraine-controlled territory. So which is it, the BUK or the fighter jet? Or both? I am sure the US will present their evidence soon as well.

BTW, at 27:37 they claim to see the address of the car dealer, but I see a black unreadable squiggle. I watched the video several time in the largest possible view, and still can't read anything. Is there a better image of this somewhere?

My point is that int'l aviation authorities could have called Ukraine a no-fly zone on the basis of whatever evidence there was on the ground AND on the basis of the previous incidents which you correctly indicate. In my personal books the presence of a missile rig capable of shooting at high-altitude targets would have been sufficient to warrant such measures.

The final point, I guess, is that collectively the west is spend peta-zillion$ in "deploying advanced technologies which enables us to gather...bla, bla, bla, and to prevent etc, etc, etc, and to foresee and forecast and thwart and neutralize..." so on and so forth ad nauseam. Yet this prevention and thwarting and neutralization and all these elegant and technical buzzwords are totally useless if the harebrained military and politicians cannot (or do not) put their hairy balls on the table and say: "ok guys you can't fly over there".

Granted that alone would not have solved the problems on the ground, nor would it have been enough to reconcile the separatists to the rest of Ukraine or to find a bloodless solution to the creation of some kind of independent territory or to bring back to life all the victims that both parties involved have caused until now.
But I do think it would have avoided this senseless massacre.

__________________

Not to forget their own people are shooting back; so far today they claim 3 tanks and one plane.

It looks as if even the relatives of Russian fighters killed in Ukraine have trouble retrieving the bodies. There is also a refrigerated truck mentioned in this June report, which suggests that such vehicles do exist in that region.

Russian Journalist Follows Up on ‘Cargo 200′ From Donetsk

and... you would be happy I guess if you see Russia out of the SC and UN? Go ahead and try.

UN 'does not have its hands tied'. UN is Russia as much as it is US or UK.

Has anyone told NATO what's happened here? Or are they still hiding under their desks?

What evidence do we have from the Ukranian government or the West that the separatists did it, other than a bunch of public statements saying they could do it, therefore they did?

Russia is spending $600 billion on their military in the next 6 years, NATO should be hiding under their desks:

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/738863

...and the French are selling them war-ships:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0PW49J20140721

I guess it's either time to learn Russian, or move to the US (I hear illegal immigrants get free housing and healthcare, maybe not a bad idea...)

Photos in the Guardian of the black boxes being handed over to Malaysian officials here.

I do not know, please tell me



Well you do not use nukes on your own doorstep due to the after effects like, for example, radioactive dust clouds. Plus the IDF do try to target only the terrorists and not wipe out huge civilian areas



Sadly oh so true




Exactly my point; there is not enough physical gold to cover international trade.

Last time I checked the Chinese had around 4 trillion US dollars in their reserves. At current prices this is about 100 thousand tons of gold; more than half the worlds total gold supply. Quite a challenge

Get we get Collin Powell out of retirement to show some cartoon diagrams of it in the UN security council? He is unbeaten at presenting vague theories as "intel"...

To get the (Republican) German Empire and the Italy of Benito Mussolini out of the League of Nations was part of what lead to WW-TWO

The USSR for decades spent more money on their military, but the result was of meagre quality. The French sell warships to Russia, which means that the Deuxième Bureau will be present in Russia, as Russia will need French experts for years to come

That argument is just too, sorry, stupid to even bother trying to debate it.

You are inviting me, personally, to try and eject Russia not only from the Security council, but also the UN?

Read the whole post, and the the posts that it was in part response to. This is called context.

People jumping at shadows, and excitedly pushing buttons on a keyboard without the full context readily available to them [, not wholly unlike yourself, sir,] may be why we are having this conversation in the first place.

Let me know when that sinks in.

funniest post on this thread yet. Russia isn't spending anything because it doesn't have much to spend. French warships are awful as are their homebrew fighters and other military equipment. That's why they sell to Russia and everyone else. No one can afford to buy British stuff because it's at least an entire generation more advanced than almost anything else (except the US).

And you can see - the giant that is China has an aircraft carrier now. Made of lego. I mean, something from the dark ages bought from China and then with bits glued onto it. These militaries are an absolute joke. I'm even sceptical about the Russian nukes - how many they thing they have, how many they actually have without the fissile material missing having been sold to Iran and N Korea, how many fly, how many can be tracked and targeted accurately, and how many of those won't be shot down by THAAD or similar. And while all that's happening all of the US's good missiles will be making the entire Russian expanse glow the prettiest shade of green you can imagine.

The answer is simple... prevailing winds.

Any fall-out from a nuclear strike on Gaza would almost certainly contaminate vast areas of Israel and kill many thousands of Israeli citizens.

What a stupid comment. Israel has the capability to utterly destroy every living Palestinian tomorrow without the use of Nukes. The reason why they warn about bombings and the reason why they risk soldiers lives by a ground offensive is to try and spare lives. It would cost them nothing just to increase the bombing and flatten the whole place, risk free.

Alright, I'll admit that I've only been dipping into this thread from time to time, but since when did the Israel Gaza situation become applicable to the downing of a civilian aircraft in the Ukraine.

Let's try to keep this on topic, and while we're at it let's also try to keep it civil as well.

The whole israel could nuke thing was stupid, and not relevant to this thread at all, just makes me wonder about some peoples intelligence.

can we get back on track and leave the israel bashing in the other thread