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  #261  
Old 22.07.2014, 11:17
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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agreed, but its not proof of anything, people are seeing what they want to see, if you look at whats happened in the cold light of day Russia has far more to lose then anyone else, the Ukraine gov has the most to 'win' that's assuming it wasn't just a terrible terrible mistake by a trigger happy private
About "the Ukraine gov has the most to 'win' " - please clarify exactly what they would win versus the huge risk that they would entirely lose the support of the West if they shot down a civil airliner? It is not logical.

It was always clear the Putin's use of militia was high risk because he only has limited control over them. Now by failing to meet the militia's wishes to invade Ukraine the control he did have is fading away, Recent comments by militia leaders at press conferences seem to be supporting the idea that Putin masterminded the whole "rebellion".

Only a hard core of Putin supporters now do not believe the airliner was shot down with Russian help; there is simply too much circumstantial evidence.
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  #262  
Old 22.07.2014, 11:17
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Photos in the Guardian of the black boxes being handed over to Malaysian officials here.
How many black boxes are normally installed on Boeing 777? I suppose most of the information in all black boxes should be identical. I wonder if they found and handed over all of the black boxes. Otherwise another black box with conflicting information might be "discovered" later.
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  #263  
Old 22.07.2014, 11:31
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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How many black boxes are normally installed on Boeing 777?
2.

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I suppose most of the information in all black boxes should be identical.
You suppose wrongly.

One is for flight data, the other is for cockpit voice recording.

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I wonder if they found and handed over all of the black boxes. Otherwise another black box with conflicting information might be "discovered" later.
It says that they handed over both, so there is nothing left to discover later.

Tom
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  #264  
Old 22.07.2014, 11:35
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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How many black boxes are normally installed on Boeing 777? I suppose most of the information in all black boxes should be identical. I wonder if they found and handed over all of the black boxes. Otherwise another black box with conflicting information might be "discovered" later.
you will see that in the blackbox, the Malaysian pilot suddenly gets a Russian accent, just before the crash and say something like "look a fighter jet! it has a Ukranian flag on it!..."
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  #265  
Old 22.07.2014, 11:42
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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There we go...

Russian Ministry of Defence briefing on MH-17 Boeing 777 aircrash -- in Russian and English. I didn't watch it myself yet, let's see what they got to say.
[/YOUTUBE]
Disappointing; as already said "they present two conflicting theories" and no smoking gun evidence.

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Ah, ok, got it. But they present two conflicting theories. First they seem to insinuate that what they believe to be a Ukraine military plane nearby shot it down, then they insinuate the BUK with missiles missing in the YouTube video was actually shot from Ukraine-controlled territory. So which is it, the BUK or the fighter jet? Or both? I am sure the US will present their evidence soon as well.
About " I am sure the US will present their evidence soon as well". I am not so sure, I do not believe Obama cares what we think. He just needs the evidence to share with his political colleagues to get their support. He may never show the evidence.

He might pull his "birth certificate" trick again and wait for the Russians to go much further down the path of presenting conflicting theories and when they are really out on a limb he will present the evidence and cut off their limb.
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  #266  
Old 22.07.2014, 11:44
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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About "the Ukraine gov has the most to 'win' " - please clarify exactly what they would win versus the huge risk that they would entirely lose the support of the West if they shot down a civil airliner? It is not logical.

It was always clear the Putin's use of militia was high risk because he only has limited control over them. Now by failing to meet the militia's wishes to invade Ukraine the control he did have is fading away, Recent comments by militia leaders at press conferences seem to be supporting the idea that Putin masterminded the whole "rebellion".

Only a hard core of Putin supporters now do not believe the airliner was shot down with Russian help; there is simply too much circumstantial evidence.

Its a PR coup for the ukraine gov, those nasty russians sending troops and weapons over here, and shooting down a passenger plane. Makes the west sit up and try and get russia to back off

now we have a good guy and a bad guy.

its probably highly unlikely that's its anything but how it looks, but everything is fair in love and war so I'd not discount anything at the moment.
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  #267  
Old 22.07.2014, 11:55
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

A weird co-incidence....

Did you know ?

MH17 9M-MRD first flew on the 17th July 1997 and crashed exactly 17 years later on the 17th July 2014.
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Old 22.07.2014, 12:00
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

The comment was not stupid ! It was simply the elementary answer to a daft question !!

P.S. And actually as daft and off-topic as your comment about the Chinese building ships from Lego, Tree !! :-)

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What a stupid comment. Israel has the capability to utterly destroy every living Palestinian tomorrow without the use of Nukes. The reason why they warn about bombings and the reason why they risk soldiers lives by a ground offensive is to try and spare lives. It would cost them nothing just to increase the bombing and flatten the whole place, risk free.

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  #269  
Old 22.07.2014, 12:00
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Its a PR coup for the ukraine gov, those nasty russians sending troops and weapons over here, and shooting down a passenger plane. Makes the west sit up and try and get russia to back off

now we have a good guy and a bad guy.

its probably highly unlikely that's its anything but how it looks, but everything is fair in love and war so I'd not discount anything at the moment.
About "Its a PR coup for the Ukraine gov, those nasty Russians sending troops and weapons over here, and shooting down a passenger plane. Makes the west sit up and try and get Russia to back off"

A PR coup that will be forgotten about in a week or three? And this is worth the risk that the West find out out that Ukraine did this and consequently stop their sanctions against Russia?

If the West had an effective way to get Russia to back off they would have done so long ago.

And for those who claim it was an excuse to start a war; it is five days now - has anybody seen any statement by a West official that mentions anything about war?
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  #270  
Old 22.07.2014, 12:06
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

.
Malaysia Airlines diverts flight from Ukraine - to Syria


Malaysia Airlines re-routed a Kuala Lumpur-to-London flight over Syrian airspace on Sunday after its usual route over Ukraine was closed, flight tracking data showed on Monday.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/malaysia...#ixzz38Bcdi7zH



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  #271  
Old 22.07.2014, 12:22
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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About "Its a PR coup for the Ukraine gov, those nasty Russians sending troops and weapons over here, and shooting down a passenger plane. Makes the west sit up and try and get Russia to back off"

A PR coup that will be forgotten about in a week or three? And this is worth the risk that the West find out out that Ukraine did this and consequently stop their sanctions against Russia?

If the West had an effective way to get Russia to back off they would have done so long ago.

And for those who claim it was an excuse to start a war; it is five days now - has anybody seen any statement by a West official that mentions anything about war?

I did say unlikely usually things are exactly how they appear regardless of what the tin foil hat brigade would have us believe
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  #272  
Old 22.07.2014, 12:45
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

10 questions Russian military pose to Ukraine & US over MH17 crash

...questions likely to be 'answered' with more fact-free accusations against Russia, perhaps with another flurry of unilateral sanctions.
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  #273  
Old 22.07.2014, 12:53
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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10 questions Russian military pose to Ukraine & US over MH17 crash

...questions likely to be 'answered' with more fact-free accusations against Russia, perhaps with another flurry of unilateral sanctions.
Ah, good ole RT

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The creation of Russia Today was a part of a larger PR effort by the Russian government intended to improve the image of Russia abroad.[8] RT was conceived by former media minister Mikhail Lesin,[9] and Vladimir Putin's press spokesperson Aleksei Gromov.[10]
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  #274  
Old 22.07.2014, 13:15
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Dateline July 2015:
  • Bankrupt Malasian Airways bought by Quantas
  • Putin Still running Russia with higher than ever popularity ratings
  • Netherlands remembers their date on the anniversary of the shooting down
  • Europe imports more Russian gas than ever
  • Other EU countries follow Germany and decommission nuclear power stations and ban fracking
  • EU exports to Russia break new records
  • International enquiry on air crash still sitting - results expected to be a whitewash due to no conclusive evidence
  • This thread hits 80 pages....
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  #275  
Old 22.07.2014, 13:26
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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And this is worth the risk that the West find out out that Ukraine did this and consequently stop their sanctions against Russia?
What did the West find out about snipers on Maidan square? It has been months since the events happened. In May Ukrainian officials blamed Yanukovych and Russian snipers as well. Does anyone even remember that anymore? It has been overshadowed by the most recent events.

As always if the investigation results are negative for Kiev and the West then they are being silenced and forgotten.
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  #276  
Old 22.07.2014, 13:35
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Donetsk is a poor region in the Ukraine that desparately wants to join Russia again. They feel Russia would offer them a better life than the Ukraine does.

And this is where the crux lies: Does the Western world understand why an area would want to rejoin Russia? I truly believe the Western world is not being given the whole picture in the reporting of the situation. On the other hand, Russians are also being fed non-neutral reporting as well.

The rebels screwed up and this will cost them their credibility. If they could have presented their issues to the Western world in a peaceful but determined tone, perhaps they would have been regarded with more empathy. Now they seem to just be a mixed jumble of gun-toting men without real guiding leadership.

Should Russia and Ukraine tell the locals to keep quiet and carry the cross they bear silently? Does the US carry a hidden agenda in all of their demands (as many Russians believe)?

It's a tricky political situation marred by a senseless tragedy.
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Old 22.07.2014, 13:44
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Donetsk is a poor region in the Ukraine that desparately wants to join Russia again. They feel Russia would offer them a better life than the Ukraine does.

And this is where the crux lies: Does the Western world understand why an area would want to rejoin Russia? I truly believe the Western world is not being given the whole picture in the reporting of the situation. On the other hand, Russians are also being fed non-neutral reporting as well.

The rebels screwed up and this will cost them their credibility. If they could have presented their issues to the Western world in a peaceful but determined tone, perhaps they would have been regarded with more empathy. Now they seem to just be a mixed jumble of gun-toting men without real guiding leadership.

Should Russia and Ukraine tell the locals to keep quiet and carry the cross they bear silently? Does the US carry a hidden agenda in all of their demands (as many Russians believe)?

It's a tricky political situation marred by a senseless tragedy.
About "They feel Russia would offer them a better life than the Ukraine does." According to newspaper reports at the time, the Crimean's believed people working for the State would get get higher salaries at Russian levels and Sate pensions would be higher.
Since then I have read that Crimean shop prices are rising to Russian levels; I assume they now have to buy from Russian wholesalers?
Does anybody have information on higher salaries and pensions; were their expectations met?
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  #278  
Old 22.07.2014, 13:50
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Donetsk is a poor region in the Ukraine that desparately wants to join Russia again.
Why do you think Donetsk is a poor region?

Wikipedia: "The Donetsk Oblast (region) covers more than one half coal, finished steel, coke, cast iron and steel production in Ukraine. Ferrous metallurgy, fuel industry and power industry are in demand in the structure of industry production. There are about 882 industry enterprises that are on independent balance, and 2,095 small industry enterprises in the oblast."

"Donetsk and the surrounding territories are heavily urbanised and agglomerated into conurbation. The workforce is heavily involved with heavy industry, especially coal mining. The city is an important center of heavy industry and coal mines in the Donets Basin (Donbass) and Ukraine."

"In 2012, Donetsk was admitted as the best city for business in Ukraine by Forbes. Donetsk topped the rating in five indicators: human capital, the purchasing power of citizens, investment situation, economic stability, as well as infrastructure and comfort."
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  #279  
Old 22.07.2014, 13:53
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Dateline July 2015:
  • Bankrupt Malasian Airways bought by Quantas
  • Putin Still running Russia with higher than ever popularity ratings
  • Netherlands remembers their date on the anniversary of the shooting down
  • Europe imports more Russian gas than ever
  • Other EU countries follow Germany and decommission nuclear power stations and ban fracking
  • EU exports to Russia break new records
  • International enquiry on air crash still sitting - results expected to be a whitewash due to no conclusive evidence
  • This thread hits 80 pages....
You kinda beat me to it with this post.

No doubt in the coming weeks or months undeniable evidence will be uncovered implicAting either Russia or the rebels in the downing of MH17. And then what?

We have to accept the fog of war can extend above 30,40 even 70 thousand ft and cross long established borders. Every conflict on the globe has the potential to impact us with little or no recourse. Vladimir has already stated, be it diplomatically his position on the matter, and that is " War is hell,dudes"

Sanctions will hurt Russia, but their pain threshold is probably way beyond your average Western European when doing it tough.

We need to accept that Ukraine will almost certainly divide. Only then we might see a return to universal rationality in this arena.
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Old 22.07.2014, 14:36
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Why do you think Donetsk is a poor region?
Got it from talking to people living in that area and not Wikipedia.

Edit:
Here's an article backing up my statement:
http://www.businessweek.com/articles...p-wants-change

Last edited by olygirl; 22.07.2014 at 20:23.
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