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  #281  
Old 22.07.2014, 15:11
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I see the analogy you are trying to make, but I trust the Dutch with the investigation like this, they are known for there honesty and integrity; they will not allow politics to taint an investigation of this level.
Unlike Russians, right?

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This is perhaps a better question asked at The Hague, though under the circumstances that particular court itself may even need to recuse itself, considering the number of Dutch passengers aboard.

I refer to the International Criminal Court, and I bring it up because this bit of devil's advocacy you describe would suggest that war is a free for all, genocides, shooting at ambulances, good old fashion raping and pillaging, are acceptable behaviors attached to international conflicts.
Have you even GLANCED at the ICC statute, and understand which crimes it is foreseen to try?

Have you also checked which countries have signed the Statute (and those who have not)?

And do you actually UNDERSTAND what signing (or not) the Statute actually means?

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Maybe it's time the EU stood up to Putin's aggression before it's 1939 again?
Maybe it's time Russia stood up against NATO agression, indeed, before it's 1939 again?

Last edited by 3Wishes; 22.07.2014 at 16:26. Reason: merging successive posts
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  #282  
Old 22.07.2014, 16:33
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Russia signed an agreement to respect Ukraine's borders and guess what!
US signed an agreement to respect borders of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Serbia, you name it. And guess what.

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East Europe countries ran into NATO's arms
and Crimea and East Ukraine ran into Russian's arms.

What precisely is your problem?

Last edited by 3Wishes; 22.07.2014 at 16:41. Reason: Try the multiquote function. It's handy. :)
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  #283  
Old 22.07.2014, 16:44
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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US signed an agreement to respect borders of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Serbia, you name it. And guess what.
Do you have a link to these agreements?

Surely it was Russia who signed an agreement to respect borders of Afghanistan; Soviet-Afghan frontier agreement of 1325 Š./1946 and guess what!
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  #284  
Old 22.07.2014, 16:50
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Do you have a link to these agreements?
yes, i do.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/
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Old 22.07.2014, 17:12
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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The rebels screwed up and this will cost them their credibility. If they could have presented their issues to the Western world in a peaceful but determined tone, perhaps they would have been regarded with more empathy. Now they seem to just be a mixed jumble of gun-toting men without real guiding leadership.
I think they lost their credibility as soon as they picked up guns and put on ski-masks. If they want change, use political dialog, peaceful protests, etc. There are many ways to make your voice heard. Picking up guns only leads to war.
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  #286  
Old 22.07.2014, 17:12
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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US signed an agreement to respect borders of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Serbia,
Where in the UN charter does it state "US signed an agreement to respect borders of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Serbia" ?
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  #287  
Old 22.07.2014, 18:29
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

A very interesting presentation by the Russians.

No - it does not answer any questions.

But it does raise many new questions !

And the USA, if they really can identify which missile launcher fired the deadly shot, should present their evidence and stop trying to score brownie points !!

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10 questions Russian military pose to Ukraine & US over MH17 crash

...questions likely to be 'answered' with more fact-free accusations against Russia, perhaps with another flurry of unilateral sanctions.
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  #288  
Old 22.07.2014, 20:29
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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A very interesting presentation by the Russians.

No - it does not answer any questions.

But it does raise many new questions !

And the USA, if they really can identify which missile launcher fired the deadly shot, should present their evidence and stop trying to score brownie points !!
And the USA are not going to answer those questions or provide any evidence. The world should believe them blindly, because they never lie.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/20...50.htm#UKRAINE

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QUESTION: Well, I mean, again, you might be right, but I don’t see how you can say that everything we say is right and everything the Russians say is a lie.

MS. HARF: That’s not what I said.

QUESTION: That’s exactly what you just said right now.

MS. HARF: That’s not what I said. I said I would say that we are not two credible – equally credible parties when it comes to what we say publicly about the conflict in Ukraine.

QUESTION: And your argument would be that the U.S. is more credible than the Russians are, right? Is that what you’re --

MS. HARF: I’m not even dignifying that question with a response.

QUESTION: Well, I mean --

QUESTION: Marie, did you see the --

QUESTION: But you’re leaving that impression, Marie.

MS. HARF: That we’re more credible? Yes. We don’t put out mass amounts of propaganda. We don’t put out misinformation about what’s happening there repeatedly over the course of this conflict, which I’ve spoken about from this podium day after day. Absolutely.

QUESTION: But can you tell us --

QUESTION: The problem with that is is that all of 2002 and the beginning of 2003 was propaganda and misleading information that was put out by the United States.

MS. HARF: Okay, Matt. I’m sure that’s a tempting historical analogy to make, but it in no way impacts at all how we are doing this assessment or what we’re doing.
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  #289  
Old 22.07.2014, 20:58
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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A very interesting presentation by the Russians.

No - it does not answer any questions.

But it does raise many new questions !

And the USA, if they really can identify which missile launcher fired the deadly shot, should present their evidence and stop trying to score brownie points !!
If the Russians who live about 15Km from the action and have the whole area under intense military and radar control cannot provide any answers then how do you expect the USA who live half the world away to provide answers. Or do you sincerely believe the US technology is decades advanced versus the Russian? .

Last edited by 3Wishes; 22.07.2014 at 22:44. Reason: fixed quoting
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  #290  
Old 22.07.2014, 21:17
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Ideally, we would like to a thorough investigation. We would like to see those responsible admit the truth, be held accountable.We would like to see the victims laid to rest honoured and remembered. And of course, we would like to see their loved ones receive compensation and closure,the airline exonerated.

Alas, in the short term, we will see little of these things. In the long term, Putin's successor may offer something, but until I fear there until the. will be little more remaining than memories, heartache and a lonely memorial in the corner of some foreign field.
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  #291  
Old 22.07.2014, 21:32
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Because I was referring to the question raised by the Russians that if the US claim they have satellite imagery of a launch of the missile responsible for the downing of the aircraft, they should show it to everyone as the Russians confirm that the US had a satellite covering the area.

[QUOTE=marton;2203203]
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A very interesting presentation by the Russians.

No - it does not answer any questions.

But it does raise many new questions !

And the USA, if they really can identify which missile launcher fired the deadly shot, should present their evidence and stop trying to score brownie points !![/QUOTE

If the Russians who live about 15Km from the action and have the whole area under intense military and radar control cannot provide any answers then how do you expect the USA who live half the world away to provide answers. Or do you sincerely believe the US technology is decades advanced versus the Russian? .
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  #292  
Old 22.07.2014, 21:35
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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You are inviting me, personally, to try and eject Russia not only from the Security council, but also the UN?

Read the whole post, and the the posts that it was in part response to. This is called context.

People jumping at shadows, and excitedly pushing buttons on a keyboard without the full context readily available to them [, not wholly unlike yourself, sir,] may be why we are having this conversation in the first place.

Let me know when that sinks in.
What exactly is the point of saying 'UN hands are tied'?

Yes, they are. So what exactly are you proposing?

Or just stating the obvious?
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  #293  
Old 22.07.2014, 21:39
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Because I was referring to the question raised by the Russians that if the US claim they have satellite imagery of a launch of the missile responsible for the downing of the aircraft, they should show it to everyone as the Russians confirm that the US had a satellite covering the area.
So the Russians confirmed that the US have better technology?
BTW, several airlines including Swiss have cancelled Israel flights today due to the risk of being shot down.

Luckily my pension does not run to long distance air tickets!

Last edited by 3Wishes; 22.07.2014 at 22:45. Reason: fixed quoting
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  #294  
Old 22.07.2014, 21:55
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

It does look like this incident, sad that it is, is fading away out of the headlines. It is not because the incident is no longer newsworthy, it is simply because the front pages are beginning to fill up with other, even worse atrocities. Ultimately, it [the MH17 incident] will at worst be presented as an accident in the "fog of war" (a targeting error or something like that). It is, of course, an outrage that a rogue group was able to lay its hands on such powerful weaponry and that so many civilians (c. 300) have died as a result. There is natural anger and indignation being directed at that rogue group's alleged sponsor.

Or, at least, the indignation and anger is natural when the alleged sponsor is Russia. When, however, it is America as the sponsor and Israel as the rogue client and recipient of the state of the art weapons technology used for killing upwards of 600 civilians in a recent incident, many of whom women and children, that is, it seems, perfectly alright. Peoples' patience readiness for listing to elaborate logic and explanations of why so many innocents must die seems to be infinite.

Well, it is the Gaza incident beginning to displace the MH17 incident from the headlines and it will be interesting to see at what point we reach a reporting equilibrium. It still seems at the moment that 300 civilian deaths connected to a Russia protegé is more "shocking" than 600 civilian deaths connected to an American protegé.
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  #295  
Old 22.07.2014, 22:04
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Donetsk is a poor region in the Ukraine that desparately wants to join Russia again. They feel Russia would offer them a better life than the Ukraine does.

And this is where the crux lies: Does the Western world understand why an area would want to rejoin Russia? I truly believe the Western world is not being given the whole picture in the reporting of the situation. On the other hand, Russians are also being fed non-neutral reporting as well.

The rebels screwed up and this will cost them their credibility. If they could have presented their issues to the Western world in a peaceful but determined tone, perhaps they would have been regarded with more empathy. Now they seem to just be a mixed jumble of gun-toting men without real guiding leadership.

Should Russia and Ukraine tell the locals to keep quiet and carry the cross they bear silently? Does the US carry a hidden agenda in all of their demands (as many Russians believe)?

It's a tricky political situation marred by a senseless tragedy.
I gave you thanks for one of the more reasoned comments on this thread.

The real question is, regardless of why, do they have the right to join Russia or not?

If a legitimate president of a country is overthrown in a coup, the very president that was elected by the votes from that region, what should they expect?

Why would their votes count any less from the rest of Ukrainians?

It's easy to forget, but similar situation was in Bosnia, when 1/3 of population was completely ignored. The result was a horrible war, and status quo that is never resolved. But eventually the only solution will be for people to chose their own destiny. I am certain that Ukraine will follow the similar path.

I find it so ironic that Western propaganda calls Crimea joining Russia as 'annexation'. And Baltic states joining NATO is not annexation, but free will of people?

Same for FRG and DDR.

Soviet Union was dissolved and Baltic states followed suit and became independent. Yugoslavia was dissolved, and Bosnia became independent but Frankenstein state.

Why would east of Ukraine and Crimea have any less rights to secede than Baltic states had from the Soviet Union?

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Where in the UN charter does it state "US signed an agreement to respect borders of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Serbia" ?
in Article 2, para 4:

'All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.'

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I think they lost their credibility as soon as they picked up guns and put on ski-masks. If they want change, use political dialog, peaceful protests, etc. There are many ways to make your voice heard. Picking up guns only leads to war.
Suppose you advocated the same dialogue before Yanukovich was overthrown?

Last edited by 3Wishes; 22.07.2014 at 22:48. Reason: merging successive posts
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  #296  
Old 22.07.2014, 22:14
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Meanwhile, twitter of U.S. Department of State in Ukraine http://twitter.com/UkrProgress blames "terrorists" and locals for taking pictures with MH17 debris and turning the crash site into touristic attraction...

malaysian-airlines-mh-17-has-crashed-over-ukraine-ukrprogress.png

https://twitter.com/UkrProgress/stat...021696/photo/1

...and they claim to be more credible than Russia and never spread any propaganda.
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  #297  
Old 22.07.2014, 22:30
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Where in the UN charter does it state "US signed an agreement to respect borders of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Serbia" ?
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in Article 2, para 4:

'All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.'
But this does not say anything about specific agreements to respect the borders of the countries you listed.
the US acted in a manner consistent with the purposes of the United Nations and does respect the territorial integrity and political independence of the countries you listed; they have their own Govt and political independence.
Unlike Russia who stole a large part of Ukraine, changed the borders and politically made it part of the Russian federation so political independence is gone. Even though Russia signed agreements with Ukraine and the UN charter. They have even made the locals give up their Ukraine passports.
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Old 23.07.2014, 00:51
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Any evidence from the US connecting Russia to the crash is still to come.
For now we get this:

"WASHINGTON (AP) -- Senior U.S. intelligence officials said Tuesday that Russia was responsible for "creating the conditions" that led to the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, but they offered no evidence of direct Russian government involvement.

The intelligence officials were cautious in their assessment, noting that while the Russians have been arming separatists in eastern Ukraine, the U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia."

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...07-22-17-22-10
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  #299  
Old 23.07.2014, 00:56
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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So the Russians confirmed that the US have better technology?
BTW, several airlines including Swiss have cancelled Israel flights today due to the risk of being shot down.

Luckily my pension does not run to long distance air tickets!
The swiss TLV flight left as normal
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Old 23.07.2014, 01:15
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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The swiss TLV flight left as normal
Oh really? Tagesanzeiger tells a different story.
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wirtscha...story/14557900
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