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Old 23.07.2014, 01:51
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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But this does not say anything about specific agreements to respect the borders of the countries you listed.
the US acted in a manner consistent with the purposes of the United Nations and does respect the territorial integrity and political independence of the countries you listed; they have their own Govt and political independence.
Unlike Russia who stole a large part of Ukraine, changed the borders and politically made it part of the Russian federation so political independence is gone. Even though Russia signed agreements with Ukraine and the UN charter. They have even made the locals give up their Ukraine passports.
Sure. Bombing Serbia, stealing part of its territory, destroying Iraq, Afghanistan, you name it....

Very consistent with principles of the UN.
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Old 23.07.2014, 01:56
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So the Russians confirmed that the US have better technology?
BTW, several airlines including Swiss have cancelled Israel flights today due to the risk of being shot down.

Luckily my pension does not run to long distance air tickets!
Nikita Sergeyevich Chroushtshov, on a state visit to the USA, after landing at New York Idlewild, saw a Caravelle of United Airlines, and said "such airplanes are what we ought to have"

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Sure. Bombing Serbia, stealing part of its territory, destroying Iraq, Afghanistan, you name it....

Very consistent with principles of the UN.
Nobody stole any part of Serbian territory. And Afghanistan always only was kept together by the iron fist of determined leaders. Iraq simply is the result of the weird idea of some Brits who decided to unite three Wilejets of Mesopotamia into a country

Last edited by MusicChick; 23.07.2014 at 08:32. Reason: merging consecutive posts
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  #303  
Old 23.07.2014, 04:49
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I am sorry but I can not understand what is written.

All I can see is someone posing in front of a crashed aircraft that looks neither like 9M-MRD or even a B777.

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Meanwhile, twitter of U.S. Department of State in Ukraine http://twitter.com/UkrProgress blames "terrorists" and locals for taking pictures with MH17 debris and turning the crash site into touristic attraction...

Attachment 85101

https://twitter.com/UkrProgress/stat...021696/photo/1

...and they claim to be more credible than Russia and never spread any propaganda.
The morning flight flew but the evening flight was cancelled.


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Oh really? Tagesanzeiger tells a different story.
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wirtscha...story/14557900
Nooooo.... The Russians would never confirm ( publicly ) that.

They were just calling the USA's bluff !!



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So the Russians confirmed that the US have better technology?
BTW, several airlines including Swiss have cancelled Israel flights today due to the risk of being shot down.

Luckily my pension does not run to long distance air tickets!
This is shocking if true !!

The US, including Obama, were already pointing the finger at the Russians and the Rebels - and now they say they don't have the proof that they were claiming they had ????

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Any evidence from the US connecting Russia to the crash is still to come.
For now we get this:

"WASHINGTON (AP) -- Senior U.S. intelligence officials said Tuesday that Russia was responsible for "creating the conditions" that led to the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, but they offered no evidence of direct Russian government involvement.

The intelligence officials were cautious in their assessment, noting that while the Russians have been arming separatists in eastern Ukraine, the U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia."

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...07-22-17-22-10

Last edited by MusicChick; 23.07.2014 at 08:33. Reason: multiquote, please
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  #304  
Old 23.07.2014, 08:31
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Nobody stole any part of Serbian territory.
Ummm, Kosovo?

Tom
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Old 23.07.2014, 08:45
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Consolation in the whole matter is that at least local authorities are cooperating with international inspectors and we might learn slightly more soon (let's wait months if not a year):

MH17 black boxes head to Farnborough for analysis

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...aysia-airlines
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Old 23.07.2014, 10:42
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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This is shocking if true !!

The US, including Obama, were already pointing the finger at the Russians and the Rebels - and now they say they don't have the proof that they were claiming they had ????
They didn't release any satellite images or any other proof. But they went as far as saying that the rebels probably shot the plane down by mistake:

"The intelligence officials said the most likely explanation for the downing was that the rebels made a mistake. Separatists previously had shot down 12 Ukrainian military airplanes, the officials said."


Some Russian news sources say that the damage from the surface to air missile is very different from the damage done by the air to air missile and that the wreckage will clearly show the difference when analyzed. They say that there was another plane that shot down the airliner.
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  #307  
Old 23.07.2014, 11:09
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

The biggest piece of evidence so far was supplied directly by the pro-Russian rebels themselves, discussing the crash immediately after it happened. Several voice analysis on the recordings has proved it to be genuine. Churkin didn't deny it, actually seemed to be suggesting they shot by accident (and trying to distance Russia from supporting terrorism directly):

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Vitaly Churkin, Russia's ambassador to the United Nations, also blamed Ukraine for the crash in remarks Monday. But when asked about audio recordings of purported pro-Russia separatists talking about shooting down a plane, he suggested that if they did, it was an accident.
"According to them, the people from the east were saying that they shot down a military jet," he said. "If they think they shot down a military jet, it was confusion. If it was confusion, it was not an act of terrorism."
As for proving Russia supplied the Buk, I suppose that will be difficult, there have been so many military convoys moving from Russia into Ukraine recently (the reason why the EU is sanctioning Russia):

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On Tuesday, apparent new evidence of Russian military aid appeared on the roads of eastern Ukraine as convoys of tanks and smaller vehicles drove west through rebel-controlled territory toward Donetsk. Shortly after 10 a.m., a column of eight tanks, four large armored personnel carriers, and an assortment of smaller civilian cars and minivans wound its way through the small town of Vuglegirsk.
Rebels reclined on the top of the tanks, as if on couches. A kiosk owner watched as they passed. “I’m just sick of it all,” said the owner, who would give only her first name, Larisa, out of concern for her safety.
She saved her harshest words for Ukraine’s government. “They are killing their own people,” she said. “We won’t forgive them that.”
A half-hour later, a column of four tanks rolled down the same road, past a brilliant field of sunflowers. Behind were trucks and civilian cars, including a new-looking Volkswagen minivan, with a blue light on top.
The continued supply of arms and equipment has riled officials in Kiev, including President Petro O. Poroshenko, who has urged the West to impose more painful economic sanctions against Russia.
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  #308  
Old 23.07.2014, 11:18
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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The biggest piece of evidence so far was supplied directly by the pro-Russian rebels themselves, discussing the crash immediately after it happened. Several voice analysis on the recordings has proved it to be genuine. Churkin didn't deny it, actually seemed to be suggesting they shot by accident (and trying to distance Russia from supporting terrorism directly):

As for proving Russia supplied the Buk, I suppose that will be difficult, there have been so many military convoys moving from Russia into Ukraine recently (the reason why the EU is sanctioning Russia):
"Several voice analysis on the recordings has proved it to be genuine" -- I have seen a different conclusion of an analysis. In any case relying on the social media for proof is not enough -- can the US do any better than that?
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Old 23.07.2014, 11:20
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

The US have toned down there rhetoric in the past couple of days, so I suppose this will all be quietly forgotten about in the coming weeks
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Old 23.07.2014, 11:36
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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You are inviting me, personally, to try and eject Russia not only from the Security council, but also the UN?

Read the whole post, and the the posts that it was in part response to. This is called context.

People jumping at shadows, and excitedly pushing buttons on a keyboard without the full context readily available to them [, not wholly unlike yourself, sir,] may be why we are having this conversation in the first place.

Let me know when that sinks in.
What exactly is the point of saying 'UN hands are tied'?

Yes, they are. So what exactly are you proposing?

Or just stating the obvious?
I love it, you quote me when I ask you to learn the context of the conversation, and then ask me what I am talking about.

I was responding to Mirfield, who had posed a "Devil's Advocate" question.

As for the ICC Ukraine, US, and Russia have signed, the latter two with no intention of ratification. Ukraine nearly ratified it going into 2013, no idea where that stands at the moment, but it doesn't matter right now. Anyhow, I was suggesting the ICC would have to at least consider recusing itself as a venue due to the number of Dutch casualties.

As for Russia, and UN, NATO; I was replying to a quote from Esto, in the same comment, that due to Russia's long tenure on the Sec council, and the bristling sentiments on the ground, that there exists no 'magic bullet' for the UN or NATO or the US to fire.

If you stop perceiving absolutely everything as an attack on Favorite Country, you will be surprised to see how less frequently you find Favorite Country under attack. In time you will become more relaxed, and perhaps even tolerant of views dissimilar to your own. [this is me, joking and suggesting that we all dial it down a notch or 12]
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  #311  
Old 23.07.2014, 11:41
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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"Several voice analysis on the recordings has proved it to be genuine" -- I have seen a different conclusion of an analysis. In any case relying on the social media for proof is not enough -- can the US do any better than that?
It's not social media, it's recordings released by Ukrainian SBU, and verified by US Intelligence. I'm sure Russia will try to discredit it, as usual.

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The US have toned down there rhetoric in the past couple of days, so I suppose this will all be quietly forgotten about in the coming weeks
Yesterday the EU agreed to a few more token sanctions against some of Putin's inner circle, I think that's about the end of it. Show's over, everyone move along please....
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Old 23.07.2014, 12:49
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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It's not social media, it's recordings released by Ukrainian SBU, and verified by US Intelligence. I'm sure Russia will try to discredit it, as usual.

....
I thought these recordings were picked up from from Youtube.. Would you have a link where the US officials claim to have analyzed the original recordings? Thanks..
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Old 23.07.2014, 13:39
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I thought these recordings were picked up from from Youtube.. Would you have a link where the US officials claim to have analyzed the original recordings? Thanks..
Sure:

http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/stateme...-07192014.html

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Intercepts of separatist communications posted on YouTube by the Ukrainian government indicate the separatists were in possession of a SA-11 system as early as Monday July 14th. In the intercepts, the separatists made repeated references to having and repositioning Buk (SA-11) systems.
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In an intercepted conversation that has been widely posted on the internet, a known-separatist leader tells another person that a separatist faction downed the aircraft. After it became evident that the plane was a civilian airliner, separatists deleted social media posts boasting about shooting down a plane and possessing a Buk (SA-11) SAM system.

Audio data provided to the press by the Ukrainian security service was evaluated by Intelligence Community analysts who confirmed these were authentic conversations between known separatist leaders, based on comparing the Ukraine-released internet audio to recordings of known separatists.
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Old 23.07.2014, 14:37
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

This is what I heard -- video posted on Youtube by the Ukrainian government. Of course the Russians have already analyzed it and said it was a fake.
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Old 23.07.2014, 15:38
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Sure. Bombing Serbia, stealing part of its territory, destroying Iraq, Afghanistan, you name it....

Very consistent with principles of the UN.
There are no US states in Europe whereas Crimea is aRussian State against the wishes of the Ukraine Govt.

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This is shocking if true !!

The US, including Obama, were already pointing the finger at the Russians and the Rebels - and now they say they don't have the proof that they were claiming they had ????
They did not say they had no evidence, they said they had no direct evidence of Russian involvement. We need to know what is meant by "direct".
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Old 23.07.2014, 18:23
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I love it, you quote me when I ask you to learn the context of the conversation, and then ask me what I am talking about.

I was responding to Mirfield, who had posed a "Devil's Advocate" question.

As for the ICC Ukraine, US, and Russia have signed, the latter two with no intention of ratification. Ukraine nearly ratified it going into 2013, no idea where that stands at the moment, but it doesn't matter right now. Anyhow, I was suggesting the ICC would have to at least consider recusing itself as a venue due to the number of Dutch casualties.

As for Russia, and UN, NATO; I was replying to a quote from Esto, in the same comment, that due to Russia's long tenure on the Sec council, and the bristling sentiments on the ground, that there exists no 'magic bullet' for the UN or NATO or the US to fire.

If you stop perceiving absolutely everything as an attack on Favorite Country, you will be surprised to see how less frequently you find Favorite Country under attack. In time you will become more relaxed, and perhaps even tolerant of views dissimilar to your own. [this is me, joking and suggesting that we all dial it down a notch or 12]
and... dear mr. context master, how does this respond to my simple question:

are you simply stating the obvious (thanks, but I know this already), or, if not, what exactly are you proposing in this regard?
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  #317  
Old 23.07.2014, 18:29
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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There are no US states in Europe whereas Crimea is aRussian State against the wishes of the Ukraine Govt.
So whose wish is stronger and should prevail - of the 'Ukrainian government', or the Crimean population?

(as for 'Ukrainian government', don't forget, they were rebels as well, just a couple of months ago but at that time I think you called them 'freedom fighters'...; just wonder of your (double) standards what defines a 'freedom fighter' and what defines a rebel).


If there are no US states in Europe, certainly there are NATO states. Against the wish of the Soviet Union for example.

(and don't tell me Soviet Union has dissolved; so will Ukraine).

And... you want/dare discussing Kosovo as well?
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Old 23.07.2014, 18:57
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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So whose wish is stronger and should prevail - of the 'Ukrainian government', or the Crimean population?

(as for 'Ukrainian government', don't forget, they were rebels as well, just a couple of months ago but at that time I think you called them 'freedom fighters'...; just wonder of your (double) standards what defines a 'freedom fighter' and what defines a rebel).


If there are no US states in Europe, certainly there are NATO states. Against the wish of the Soviet Union for example.

(and don't tell me Soviet Union has dissolved; so will Ukraine).

And... you want/dare discussing Kosovo as well?
What is a NATO state? Are you suggesting UK, France, Germany are part of a political federation outside of the EU?
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  #319  
Old 23.07.2014, 19:14
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Are you suggesting UK, France, Germany are part of a political federation outside of the EU?
No. Are you?

NATO state is any NATO member state.

Interesting how conveniently it is to avoid answering the question being asked, and instead put up a smoke screen. But don't worry, you are not the only one avoiding truth when convenient.
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Old 23.07.2014, 20:16
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Don`t know how to put this in words but anyway here it goes...

What a beautiful way to show your support & respect to bereaving families for extraordinary arrangements to receive coffins containing victims of
MH17 and many thanks to media for respecting privacy of relatives.

Well done Dutch Govt and may souls of all passengers and crew of MH17
Rest in Peace.
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