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  #321  
Old 23.07.2014, 23:13
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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No. Are you?

NATO state is any NATO member state.

Interesting how conveniently it is to avoid answering the question being asked, and instead put up a smoke screen. But don't worry, you are not the only one avoiding truth when convenient.
I understand the term "Nato member" but I do not understand the term "Nato state"? What is the implication of the word "State"? There is no NATO federation with States like US states or like members of the Russian federation where their politics and policies are driven from the centre?

From today's Guardian "A top rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has admitted the armed separatist movement had control of a Buk missile system, which Kiev and western countries say was used to shoot down a Malaysia Airlines plane last week.

Alexander Khodakovsky, who leads the Vostok battalion – one of the main rebel formations – said the rebels may have received the Buk from Russia, in the first such admission by a senior separatist.
"

See here.

Come on you Putin supporters; explain this one
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  #322  
Old 23.07.2014, 23:26
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Come on you Putin supporters; explain this one
I'm still torn between "horrible misjudgment" and "cold-blooded expansion-strategy" (as far as Putin is concerned) - the rebels are of course just pawns, useful idiots who will be disposed of when they have outlived their usefulness.
Maybe Putin will "persuade" one or two to overturn themselves to the ICC....
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  #323  
Old 23.07.2014, 23:34
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I'm still torn between "horrible misjudgment" and "cold-blooded expansion-strategy" (as far as Putin is concerned) - the rebels are of course just pawns, useful idiots who will be disposed of when they have outlived their usefulness.
Maybe Putin will "persuade" one or two to overturn themselves to the ICC....
I can only repeat:

The area around Donetsk is poor and many locals want to join Russia again. Unfortunately, the rebels are knuckle heads who are being counter-productive in their strategies. Is Putin supporting them? I don't know but I haven't seen any hard evidence to validate this yet.

Too many fingers are pointing too quickly without really understanding the situation.
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  #324  
Old 23.07.2014, 23:39
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I can only repeat:

The area around Donetsk is poor and many locals want to join Russia again.
I know this. It's been known since the first "Orange Revolution". As such, I wouldn't be surprised if the country was split.

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Unfortunately, the rebels are knuckle heads who are being counter-productive in their strategies. Is Putin supporting them? I don't know but I haven't seen any hard evidence to validate this yet.

Too many fingers are pointing too quickly without really understanding the situation.
As for being counter-productive: well, that depends on the objective.
If the objective was to bring the country at the brink of civil war and force a "Former Yugoslavia"-style split-up, I believe they have been pretty successful so far.
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  #325  
Old 23.07.2014, 23:55
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I can only repeat:

The area around Donetsk is poor and many locals want to join Russia again. Unfortunately, the rebels are knuckle heads who are being counter-productive in their strategies. Is Putin supporting them? I don't know but I haven't seen any hard evidence to validate this yet.

Too many fingers are pointing too quickly without really understanding the situation.
You do not think that the fact that the militias leaders are Russian citizens gives us a clue?

For what it is worth I do not think the rebels shot down this plane deliberately, but I do think giving such people high tech weapons is dumb.
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  #326  
Old 24.07.2014, 01:00
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I understand the term "Nato member" but I do not understand the term "Nato state"? What is the implication of the word "State"? There is no NATO federation with States like US states or like members of the Russian federation where their politics and policies are driven from the centre?

From today's Guardian "A top rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has admitted the armed separatist movement had control of a Buk missile system, which Kiev and western countries say was used to shoot down a Malaysia Airlines plane last week.

Alexander Khodakovsky, who leads the Vostok battalion – one of the main rebel formations – said the rebels may have received the Buk from Russia, in the first such admission by a senior separatist.
"

See here.

Come on you Putin supporters; explain this one
Smoke screens again?
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  #327  
Old 24.07.2014, 01:22
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I'm still torn between "horrible misjudgment" and "cold-blooded expansion-strategy" (as far as Putin is concerned) - the rebels are of course just pawns, useful idiots who will be disposed of when they have outlived their usefulness.
Maybe Putin will "persuade" one or two to overturn themselves to the ICC....
About "the rebels are of course just pawns, useful idiots who will be disposed of when they have outlived their usefulness."

This view looks more and more likely to be the correct one. If Russia does not give substantial support to the rebels then the much larger and better equipped Ukrainian army will sooner or later defeat the rebels.
The rebels consequently are looking at defeat and death and so are likely to be less and less discrete about Russian/Putin involvement unless Putin gives the rebels an escape route.

This is not any comfort for the poor civilians in the effected areas of Ukraine who are getting hit/killed from all sides.
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  #328  
Old 24.07.2014, 02:32
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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There are no US states in Europe whereas Crimea is aRussian State against the wishes of the Ukraine Govt.



They did not say they had no evidence, they said they had no direct evidence of Russian involvement. We need to know what is meant by "direct".
Crimea is to fully join Russia or already has done so. And the Crimea was still Russian into the 1950ies when Tovarish Nikita donated the area to his home country Ukraine. For obvious reasons neither side invested much there. The once rich peninsula became a shabby backyard

No direct evidence simply means a lack of definite proof
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  #329  
Old 24.07.2014, 13:17
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Today one of the main pro-Russian rebel commanders (Khodakovsky the commander of "Vostkok" batallion) admits they had BUK missile systems, shot down the Malaysian flight, and then sent the BUK back to Russia to be destroyed:

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"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.
"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0FS1V920140723
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  #330  
Old 24.07.2014, 13:21
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

It'd be nice to think they sent it back to be destroyed as a "never again" bit of remorse.


Yeah, I know...
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  #331  
Old 24.07.2014, 14:23
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Crimea is to fully join Russia or already has done so. And the Crimea was still Russian into the 1950ies when Tovarish Nikita donated the area to his home country Ukraine. For obvious reasons neither side invested much there. The once rich peninsula became a shabby backyard

No direct evidence simply means a lack of definite proof
About "The once rich peninsula became a shabby backyard" except it included the major national asset, the port Sevastopol, that the Crimean's had no right to simply give away and deprive the whole country of billions of rental income.

About "No direct evidence simply means a lack of definite proof" Oversimplifying! For example, assuming the Americans have satellite evidence that a land to air missile was launched from the rebel held area. This would show the rebels were likely responsible with Russian help but is not direct evidence of Russian involvement.
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  #332  
Old 24.07.2014, 16:33
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Award winning former Associated Press reporter Robert Parry has been told by an intelligence source that the United States is in possession of satellite imagery which shows that Ukrainian troops were responsible for the shoot down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17.

"What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said."

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20...ee-in-ukraine/
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  #333  
Old 24.07.2014, 16:39
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I understand the term "Nato member" but I do not understand the term "Nato state"? What is the implication of the word "State"? There is no NATO federation with States like US states or like members of the Russian federation where their politics and policies are driven from the centre?

From today's Guardian "A top rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has admitted the armed separatist movement had control of a Buk missile system, which Kiev and western countries say was used to shoot down a Malaysia Airlines plane last week.

Alexander Khodakovsky, who leads the Vostok battalion – one of the main rebel formations – said the rebels may have received the Buk from Russia, in the first such admission by a senior separatist.
"

See here.

Come on you Putin supporters; explain this one
I am not really a Putin supporter but I can offer you a simple explanation: now RT reports that Khodakovsky claims to have never said that. He was misquoted.

And here is Guardian writing about it in the link that you present in your post -- did you read the article?
"Russian news agencies later said people close to Khodakovsky denied he made the admissions. Khodakovsky himself told Life News, a Russian news agency with links to Moscow's security services, that he was misquoted and had merely discussed "possible versions" with Reuters. Khodakovsky said the rebels "do not have and have never had" a Buk."

Last edited by leonie; 24.07.2014 at 17:00.
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  #334  
Old 24.07.2014, 17:11
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Today one of the main pro-Russian rebel commanders (Khodakovsky the commander of "Vostkok" batallion) admits they had BUK missile systems, shot down the Malaysian flight, and then sent the BUK back to Russia to be destroyed:


http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0FS1V920140723
He did not say they shot it down, only that they had it and were capable of shooting it down. Hell, even the Ukranians supposedly had BUK in the area according to the Russian Sat images.
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  #335  
Old 24.07.2014, 17:14
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

I feel left out I want a BUK too!
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  #336  
Old 24.07.2014, 17:17
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I feel left out I want a BUK too!

check ebay, should be one coming up, only used twice
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  #337  
Old 24.07.2014, 17:24
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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"What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said."
Several problems here:

1- Ukrainians don't get drunk on beer, something with 98% alcohol content would be needed

2- Why would Ukrainians shoot a missile when the only planes flying there are Ukrainian (and at higher altitudes civilian)?

3- It's one person saying this, with no evidence. Hardly credible.
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  #338  
Old 24.07.2014, 17:30
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Can satellite imagery really pick out drunk soldiers and beer bottles? Which brand was it?
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  #339  
Old 24.07.2014, 17:32
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said."
Beer bottles? Shurely they had vodka bottles? What an unlikely story

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. Khodakovsky himself told Life News, a Russian news agency with links to Moscow's security services, that he was misquoted
"links to Moscow's security services" I hope they did not hurt him too much before he withdrew his story

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check ebay, should be one coming up, only used twice
Please send me the link; gets quite noisy here sometimes
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  #340  
Old 24.07.2014, 17:33
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

the russians where too busy looking at kim kardashian sunbathing with there satellites
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