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  #61  
Old 18.07.2014, 11:46
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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You know, you don't have to drive at the speed limit; you can go bit slower if you think that's the safer thing to do. There's such a thing in this life as taking responsibility for your actions. That's something that seems somewhat rare among the management of some businesses.
I agree, but in this case, they did drive slower (they flew higher). They just didn't take a different highway. There was a NOTAM (notice to airmen) that lifted flight restrictions over Ukraine on that day. I don't want to blame anyone specifically, but what you are saying is that we should blame drivers for electing to drive on a dangerous stretch of highway that was re-opened by the authorities after an avalanche incident for example. Shouldn't we blame the authorities who opened the highway? Even though we are responsible for our own lives and vehicles, don't we rely on the authorities' expert judgment?
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  #62  
Old 18.07.2014, 12:13
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Someone interviewed on CNN this morning was saying that passenger planes had been flying safely at this altitude over other war zones, like Iraq, that the technology used to bring it down was beyond the reach of what was previously known to be used in those wars and not something that could be obtained on the armaments black market but rather at state level, that Ukrainian transport planes and military planes had been brought down in the same area recently (though he didn't say at what altitude) and that to someone not sufficiently familiar with radar equipment a similarly-sized passenger plane could look like a transport plane.

It's horrendous and all because of their stupid war games. It will be interesting to see if this stops them, or if they'll just carry on as before. They're clearly in the business of killing people anyway.

Source of that report in post #54:
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RIA Novosti (Russian: РИА Новости), sometimes shortly RIA (Russian: РИА) is one of the largest news agencies in Russia. Operating under the purview of the Russian Ministry of Communications and Mass Media.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIA_Novosti
That report could explain it, whether that was the source of the equipment or not.
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  #63  
Old 18.07.2014, 12:16
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Apparently BA had been avoiding this route for some time.
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  #64  
Old 18.07.2014, 12:25
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Rebel commander Igor Strelkow bragging about shooting down another AN-26 with pics showing the downed B-777:



those rebels are just ing idiots.
It also may be worth translating what Igor Strelkov is saying in his post:


The latest from Strelkov, Igor Ivanovich
17.07.2014 17:50 (Moscow Time) A message from the militia

"In the region of Torez an An-26 was just shot down, it's laying around now somewhere near the "Progress" mine.
We warned them - don't fly in "our skies"
And here we have a video of this latest "bird fall"
The bird fell beyond the pit heap, didn't hit any populated areas.
Civilians were not hurt.

Furthermore we have information regarding another downing of a plane, possibly an Su."

Last edited by Whitecrow; 18.07.2014 at 12:44. Reason: forgot a "the"
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  #65  
Old 18.07.2014, 12:36
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

I can not believe that this is happening. I had a theory that the Ukrainian forces deliberately shot down the jet to blame it on the Russians and attract more attention but after listening the audio from the intercepted phone call when they reached the crash site, all my doubts are gone.

In the typical Russian way when the commander is told it's a civilian plane, no weapons aboard, he says: "so WTF they were doing flying here, it's a war. They were dropping spies"

I can't believe this is happening in 2014, who knew the ideas of the Cold War are still here, I have no words.
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Old 18.07.2014, 12:38
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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This is a horrible scenario. Deepest sympathies to the families.
It reminds me of the korean airplane that was shot by a soviet jet-fighter in 83, and the iranian flight 655 shot by US navy.
Horrible. Absolutely. And if the example of flight 655, shot down by USS Vincennes, is followed, the person responsible will be awarded a medal.
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  #67  
Old 18.07.2014, 12:59
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Latest news bulletins are saying that one British guy who died had a partner and was based out of Geneva. RIP
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  #68  
Old 18.07.2014, 13:08
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Horrible. Absolutely. And if the example of flight 655, shot down by USS Vincennes, is followed, the person responsible will be awarded a medal.
Would love to see some proof to that
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  #69  
Old 18.07.2014, 13:11
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

What I don't understand is, if this was an accidental take-down, how this plane was mistaken for a military plane?

Whoever it was who took this plane down with whatever sophisticated missile defense system must certainly be able to determine WHAT he is aiming at and taking down. I mean, I have an app on my iPhone that can tell me which plane is flying over which airspace at any given time, yet these guys just shoot and fire?
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  #70  
Old 18.07.2014, 13:12
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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"so WTF they were doing flying here, it's a war. They were dropping spies"

I can't believe this is happening in 2014, who knew the ideas of the Cold War are still here, I have no words.
The airspace according to the European agencies was open, so you cannot blame Malaysia for using this route.
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  #71  
Old 18.07.2014, 13:15
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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What I don't understand is, if this was an accidental take-down, how this plane was mistaken for a military plane?

Whoever it was who took this plane down with whatever sophisticated missile defense system must certainly be able to determine WHAT he is aiming at and taking down. I mean, I have an app on my iPhone that can tell me which plane is flying over which airspace at any given time, yet these guys just shoot and fire?
According to experts military defence missiles of the type they think were used have no database or capability of asking whether the aircraft is friend or foe. So it is down to the operators to take that decision. Furthermore Internet 3G capability in that area is probably poor, seemed a pretty rural area.
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  #72  
Old 18.07.2014, 13:23
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Horrible. Absolutely. And if the example of flight 655, shot down by USS Vincennes, is followed, the person responsible will be awarded a medal.
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Would love to see some proof to that
The captain was William C. Rogers III. He was awarded the Legion of Merit at the end of his command of the USS Vincennes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_C._Rogers_III
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  #73  
Old 18.07.2014, 13:33
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

No... blaming the airlines alone is silly as the airlines, as pointed out by Malaysian Airlines in their press conference, were only followed routes deemed safe by the relevant authorities, such as ICAO and IATA, but in hindsight the risks were there to be seen.

The rebels in that area, and the Ukrainians to the west, both are known to possess the equipment capable of taking down an airliner at 40000 feet let alone 33000 feet, and as some of the rebels actually served in the Ukrainian armed forces before the revolution, it stands to reason that they knew how to operate the BUK missile system.

The area is a war-zone with not just missile systems able to bring down high-flying airliners but also military aircraft on active duty that also could present a danger to civil aviation.

I think the ICAO, IATA, Eurocontrol, Ukrainian airspace control or whatever should have considered more carefully the risks and should have imposed a strict no fly zone. Of course, it would not necessarily eliminate all the risks - the Iranian Airbus blown out of the sky with a similar loss of life was deemed to be on a perfectly safe air-route.

I have to repeat again the example of Israeli air-space and the air-space of most neighbouring Arab countries. The EL Al flights from Tel Aviv to Bombay or Bangkok do not fly over Saudi Arabia but take a huge detour around it. Likewise, BA, AF or LH flights to Riyadh, do not fly over Israel, the most direct route, but turn south over Sinai and then head east.

Better safe than sorry.

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That's where we disagree. The rebels have shot down low flying military transport planes and helicopters before. As a response do you make a no-flight zone to make sure everyone knows not to fly his corporate jet through. 32,000 feet is a VERY high ceiling. It's pretty obvious that anything flying this high is an international airliner and not an Antonov flying soldiers from one side of Ukraine to another. 32k is by far out of reach of normal weapon systems and it takes some pretty high tech rockets that were designed to prevent B52s from bombing the Soviet Union to actually reach that high. Hamas is shooting rockets at Israel the last couple of days. There is no way on earth any of their toys would remotely be able to do this sort of damage.

I find it completely reasonable to not expect the Russian separatists to randomly shoot down airliners - mostly because it has never happened before. After a century of civil aviation and millions of commercial flights can I come up with one example where a Korean one was shot down by some Russians by mistake during the cold war. They mistook it for a strategic nuclear bomber which is similar in size and flight height. I am sure there is a handful of others I am not aware of but in principle do people even at war not shoot down commercial planes by mistake - because it is pretty public which flight is on what route and they are so high that it is pretty impossible to mistake them as a threat. It's just not how war works. Given the amount of conflicts and simply messed-up countries is it pretty impossible to avoid every one horizontally.

Simple example: the plane was supposed to go from Amsterdam to KL. This means it would typically fly over Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Do you seriously suggest for every plane to avoid the entire region as we can never guarantee what Syrian rebels will do, or Isis or maybe the Americans are flying some drone operations in Pakistan beneath? I think this sort of discussion is pointless and blaming the airline is just silly.
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  #74  
Old 18.07.2014, 13:37
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Rebels or Russian military? I'd bet on the second. Knowing how to set up, arm, target and fire on any potential airplane requires training. Not something that you learn from the back of a pack of Weetos. The SA-11 or SA-17 missile that was fired yesterday was sent up by someone who hadn't finished his coursework in identifying transponder read outs. Maybe he was trying to lock onto a lower flying Ukrainian airplane, maybe he was shadowing the flight on his missile console. Maybe he was just a reckless asshole.

Maybe doesn't really help anyone the second the warhead shattered and sent 298 innocent people into the dark.
As was already posted "as some of the rebels actually served in the Ukrainian armed forces before the revolution, it stands to reason that they knew how to operate the BUK missile system. "
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Old 18.07.2014, 13:39
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Bear in mind that a lot of the rebels were trained in the Ukrainian forces before the revolution and some would have served in the Soviet Union armed forces.

The Ukrainians, Russians and the Rebels all had the equipment and skills to bring down this aircraft but my bet would be on the rebels. Not deliberately but still a horrendous, tragic mistake.

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Rebels or Russian military? I'd bet on the second. Knowing how to set up, arm, target and fire on any potential airplane requires training. Not something that you learn from the back of a pack of Weetos. The SA-11 or SA-17 missile that was fired yesterday was sent up by someone who hadn't finished his coursework in identifying transponder read outs. Maybe he was trying to lock onto a lower flying Ukrainian airplane, maybe he was shadowing the flight on his missile console. Maybe he was just a reckless asshole.

Maybe doesn't really help anyone the second the warhead shattered and sent 298 innocent people into the dark.
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  #76  
Old 18.07.2014, 13:48
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

I'm not up to speed with all the posts, so may have already been mentioned, but I've just heard on the radio about an Australian family who are now mourning they second family loss.

Their son and daughter-in-law were on board of the plane that disappeared, and now their step-daughter and husband were on this flight.

Tragedy.
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  #77  
Old 18.07.2014, 13:51
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Yes ... and it has clearly been stated all over the media that the rebels possess the BUK missile system captured from the Ukrainian forces and, as many of the rebels trained in the Ukrainian armed forces before the revoloution, as some way back in the Soviet Union era, it is pretty obvious that they have the know how to use the missiles.

Unfortunately there will be a lot of anti-Russian bashing launched by various governments and media... such as The Sun's front page title this morning... "Putin's Missile"

Totally unfounded as yet - more likely one of the missiles captured from the Ukrainian stockpiles they had.


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Two weeks ago (on June 30) NATO Commander said there was evidence that Russia was supplying the pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine with advanced anti-aircraft weaponry:

http://news.usni.org/2014/06/30/u-s-...an-separatists

If it is verified that this BUK was supplied to the rebels by Russia, Putin is going to be in a tight spot. Looks like he is already pointing the finger elsewhere to take the spotlight off himself:
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  #78  
Old 18.07.2014, 13:59
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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According to experts military defence missiles of the type they think were used have no database or capability of asking whether the aircraft is friend or foe. So it is down to the operators to take that decision.
I seriously doubt that - even handheld rockets have that detection since the 80s. Yes, even Russian ones. I'd say the rebels didn't bother as they do not have any planes - so everyone in the sky is by default an enemy...
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Old 18.07.2014, 14:08
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Afterall, airlines that fly to most Arab countries will not fly over Israel, and Israeli airlines will not fly over those Arab countries that do not have peace agreements with Israel.
Airlines pay taxes to enter a nation state's airspace. It's like road tolls you pay and it provides income for the country in question. What you're citing is likely an economical/political issue rather than a safety issue.
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Old 18.07.2014, 14:20
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I'm not up to speed with all the posts, so may have already been mentioned, but I've just heard on the radio about an Australian family who are now mourning they second family loss.

Their son and daughter-in-law were on board of the plane that disappeared, and now their step-daughter and husband were on this flight.

Tragedy.
And a flight attendant who swapped her shift on the earlier MH flight with a colleague and so was spared, who now lost her husband, as he changed his shift to this MH flight.

Dutch newspapers show a lot of stories, all as devastating. What a tragedy!
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