Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 18.07.2014, 14:36
martin959's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 1,128
Groaned at 25 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 534 Times in 296 Posts
martin959 has earned the respect of manymartin959 has earned the respect of manymartin959 has earned the respect of many
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Quote:
View Post
What I don't understand is, if this was an accidental take-down, how this plane was mistaken for a military plane?

Whoever it was who took this plane down with whatever sophisticated missile defense system must certainly be able to determine WHAT he is aiming at and taking down. I mean, I have an app on my iPhone that can tell me which plane is flying over which airspace at any given time, yet these guys just shoot and fire?
... Apparently, the app was not updated.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 18.07.2014, 14:39
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,706
Groaned at 211 Times in 179 Posts
Thanked 20,464 Times in 8,726 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Quote:
View Post
The airspace according to the European agencies was open, so you cannot blame Malaysia for using this route.
It's still a question of risk assesment.

Following the crowd and being a sheep because the others are doing the same is no excuse at the end of the day.

A war is not a friendly argument between neighbours. Although common sense would tell you to stay away from madmen with guns. Malaysias' risk managers seem to have disagreed. Now they can tell the relatives of the victims "it's not our fault, the airspace was open you know".
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #83  
Old 18.07.2014, 14:54
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Basel
Posts: 337
Groaned at 16 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 201 Times in 99 Posts
kittekat has earned some respectkittekat has earned some respect
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

In the meantime the bodies and belongings there are not treated with respect. People who don't need to be there are just walking over things and they can take what they want. People who should be there, international specialists, policeforces to close the area, are not there.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank kittekat for this useful post:
  #84  
Old 18.07.2014, 14:57
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 9,105
Groaned at 50 Times in 48 Posts
Thanked 14,077 Times in 6,514 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Quote:
View Post
It's still a question of risk assesment...
I agree, but I think those assessing risk did the best they could with the information at hand. With so few incidents in the past, the logical assumption (up until this event) was that neither Ukraine nor Russia would be foolish enough to target a passenger plane and would focus only on military targets. Prior experience also indicated even if someone wanted to target commercial traffic it would require a certain level of knowledge and weaponry.

As others have pointed out, thousands of commercial flights go over conflict zones every week without incident. Neither side has anything to gain by bringing down a commercial jet. My guess is it was an overzealous "rebel" with enough training to launch the device, but not enough intelligence to distinguish between military and civilian aircraft.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 18.07.2014, 16:19
telandy's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Thurgau
Posts: 2,042
Groaned at 5 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 584 Times in 370 Posts
telandy has an excellent reputationtelandy has an excellent reputationtelandy has an excellent reputationtelandy has an excellent reputation
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Quote:
View Post
I agree, but I think those assessing risk did the best they could with the information at hand. With so few incidents in the past, the logical assumption (up until this event) was that neither Ukraine nor Russia would be foolish enough to target a passenger plane and would focus only on military targets. Prior experience also indicated even if someone wanted to target commercial traffic it would require a certain level of knowledge and weaponry.

As others have pointed out, thousands of commercial flights go over conflict zones every week without incident. Neither side has anything to gain by bringing down a commercial jet. My guess is it was an overzealous "rebel" with enough training to launch the device, but not enough intelligence to distinguish between military and civilian aircraft.
The European authorties have to asses the risk, how does a country like Malaysia know what is happening on the ground thousands of km away. The final route is with Malaysia, I agree. If it was a codeshare flight how much input does KLM have in this decision.

Last edited by telandy; 18.07.2014 at 17:30.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 18.07.2014, 16:48
cannut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: canada
Posts: 6,706
Groaned at 179 Times in 139 Posts
Thanked 5,879 Times in 3,236 Posts
cannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Israel/Palestinians won't start WW3. But this might....

Quote:
View Post
At least they found this one

It was not exatly lost Putin is lost for words on this one I still waiting for his cheap excuse
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 18.07.2014, 16:50
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,185
Groaned at 316 Times in 166 Posts
Thanked 2,127 Times in 928 Posts
treesarehalal is considered unworthytreesarehalal is considered unworthytreesarehalal is considered unworthytreesarehalal is considered unworthytreesarehalal is considered unworthy
Re: Israel/Palestinians won't start WW3. But this might....

Quote:
View Post
It was not exatly lost Putin is lost for words on this one I still waiting for his cheap excuse
he gave a cheap excuse. Apparently it's "obvious" that the country over whose airspace the incident happened is responsible. Never heard that one before.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 18.07.2014, 17:44
esto's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: CHE
Posts: 1,374
Groaned at 77 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 3,225 Times in 1,406 Posts
esto has a reputation beyond reputeesto has a reputation beyond reputeesto has a reputation beyond reputeesto has a reputation beyond reputeesto has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Ukraine State Security video of a BUK driving back to Russia today with two missiles missing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mICnsgEY7wE

Evidence of Russian involvement is overwhelming.

Quote:
The expert implicated Russia further, revealing that the former commander of Russian Air Force Special Operations Command, a Colonel-General, stated recently in an interview that the separatists did not have the expertise to operate the BUK launchers, that only Russian personnel could do so.


It's also suspicious, Dr Sutyagin said, that Russian news agency RIA Novosti reported the crash at 16.13 Moscow time, several minutes before the crash actually happened - at 16.20.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank esto for this useful post:
  #89  
Old 18.07.2014, 17:44
Clumsy Maman's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Kt Zurich
Posts: 776
Groaned at 9 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 1,061 Times in 472 Posts
Clumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Quote:
View Post

As others have pointed out, thousands of commercial flights go over conflict zones every week without incident.
I hope this tragedy is going to change the way such risk is assessed. I find this risk assessment quite shabby to be honest. As someone suggested earlier, it is not okay to fly below 32,000 ft, but suddenly at 33,000 it is okay!

In my previous job, I worked in the maritime department of a big O&G company, and one of the things one would certainly consider in assessing risk is the impact of any incident on the current risk profile. I agree thousands of commercial flights go over certain conflict zones every week, but the moment there is documented evidence that a plane has been hit, irrespective of whether it is military or not, the risk level should be reassessed. As an example, when one of our competitor's vessel got arrested in a disputed maritime area in Latin America, we had to reassess our risk profile for one of our vessels which was working in the West African area.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Clumsy Maman for this useful post:
  #90  
Old 18.07.2014, 17:56
Clumsy Maman's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Kt Zurich
Posts: 776
Groaned at 9 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 1,061 Times in 472 Posts
Clumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Quote:
View Post
The European authorities have to asses the risk, how does a country like Malaysia know what is happening on the ground thousands of km away. The final route is with Malaysia, I agree. If it was a codeshare flight how much input does KLM have in this decision.
I don't have much aviation experience, but if it is anything like the maritime world, then the onus is also on the craft operator/ owner to assess the risk posed to their property. Many companies won't have a fully fledged risk department, but they certainly have input from companies which specialise in Risk analysis, before sailing to certain areas.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Clumsy Maman for this useful post:
  #91  
Old 18.07.2014, 18:12
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,706
Groaned at 211 Times in 179 Posts
Thanked 20,464 Times in 8,726 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Quote:
View Post
The European authorties have to asses the risk, how does a country like Malaysia know what is happening on the ground thousands of km away.
They're an airline. People are entrusting their lives and safety to them. They're supposed to be professional. It seems cheap to me to say, it happened a long way away and how were we to know there was a war going on?

Quite possibly, being an act of warfare, their insurance won't even cough up. The relatives of the victims might not ever see any compensation.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #92  
Old 18.07.2014, 19:00
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,654
Groaned at 351 Times in 302 Posts
Thanked 13,793 Times in 7,585 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

The idea that the Ukraine govt has anti aircraft missiles located
gin the middle of an area controlled by the pro-Russian people is just ludicrous.
The only possibility for this attack is the Russians or the separists; simply from the geography?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #93  
Old 18.07.2014, 19:05
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: geneve
Posts: 784
Groaned at 287 Times in 110 Posts
Thanked 1,374 Times in 546 Posts
idefix has earned the respect of manyidefix has earned the respect of manyidefix has earned the respect of many
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

The complete blame for over passing this region lies with Malaysian Airlines and its captain.

Regardless of the fact that the airspace was open above 33000 ft, what would the captain do if he had to do a emergency decent while flying this region?
Reply With Quote
This user groans at idefix for this post:
  #94  
Old 18.07.2014, 19:32
Slaphead's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,253
Groaned at 34 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 9,408 Times in 2,870 Posts
Slaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Quote:
View Post
The complete blame for over passing this region lies with Malaysian Airlines and its captain.

Regardless of the fact that the airspace was open above 33000 ft, what would the captain do if he had to do a emergency decent while flying this region?
No - the complete blame lies with the prat who ordered the missile firing. All airlines up to this point had been using this airspace. You cannot single out one airline and a captain who's instructions come not only form head office, but also from ATC.

If it hadn't been Malaysia then there's a good chance it would have been Singapore given they were pretty much on the same flight path at the same time.

Last edited by Slaphead; 18.07.2014 at 19:54.
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users would like to thank Slaphead for this useful post:
  #95  
Old 18.07.2014, 19:34
Castro's Avatar
à la mod
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Basel-Land of Smiles
Posts: 5,281
Groaned at 103 Times in 81 Posts
Thanked 15,119 Times in 4,879 Posts
Castro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

One of the most shocking things were the pictures of the rebels pilfering through the wreckage gathering passports and possibly more.
It's a crime scene FFS

Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 18.07.2014, 19:54
Slaphead's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,253
Groaned at 34 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 9,408 Times in 2,870 Posts
Slaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Quote:
View Post
One of the most shocking things were the pictures of the rebels pilfering through the wreckage gathering passports and possibly more.
It's a crime scene FFS

What I find the most shocking are the rumours that the black box has already been found, recovered and is on it's way to Moscow. If that's true then we'll never know the full truth about this incident, at least while Putin is in charge.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Slaphead for this useful post:
This user groans at Slaphead for this post:
  #97  
Old 18.07.2014, 20:14
Clumsy Maman's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Kt Zurich
Posts: 776
Groaned at 9 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 1,061 Times in 472 Posts
Clumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Also read that about the black box already making its way to Putin.
Putin de merde, I wonder what story they will now concoct!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Clumsy Maman for this useful post:
  #98  
Old 18.07.2014, 20:55
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 1,305
Groaned at 91 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 1,366 Times in 790 Posts
yacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

OECD investigators were denied (by the "rebels") good enough access to the crash site/area.
US surveillance plane called AWACS was flying over eastern Poland around the time the attack happened. Quite a distance though.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank yacek for this useful post:
  #99  
Old 18.07.2014, 21:17
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Formerly in Neuchatel
Posts: 2,709
Groaned at 218 Times in 147 Posts
Thanked 4,732 Times in 1,832 Posts
porsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Quote:
View Post
One of the most shocking things were the pictures of the rebels pilfering through the wreckage gathering passports and possibly more.
It's a crime scene FFS

Remarkable condition
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 18.07.2014, 21:22
adrianlondon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 9,212
Groaned at 171 Times in 154 Posts
Thanked 25,643 Times in 6,892 Posts
adrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Quote:
View Post
Remarkable condition
Not really. The plane didn't burn, it was shot down and crashed hard. Flat, thin books inside a pocket or bag aren't likely to be damaged. However, who knows what images/recordings/videos are true right now.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank adrianlondon for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
malaysia, mh17, plane, russia, ukraine




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 missing 3Wishes International affairs/politics 609 03.11.2016 09:11
F/A-18 has crashed in Obwalden Deep Purple Swiss politics/news 98 07.09.2016 13:01


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0