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  #81  
Old 18.07.2014, 15:36
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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What I don't understand is, if this was an accidental take-down, how this plane was mistaken for a military plane?

Whoever it was who took this plane down with whatever sophisticated missile defense system must certainly be able to determine WHAT he is aiming at and taking down. I mean, I have an app on my iPhone that can tell me which plane is flying over which airspace at any given time, yet these guys just shoot and fire?
... Apparently, the app was not updated.
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  #82  
Old 18.07.2014, 15:39
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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The airspace according to the European agencies was open, so you cannot blame Malaysia for using this route.
It's still a question of risk assesment.

Following the crowd and being a sheep because the others are doing the same is no excuse at the end of the day.

A war is not a friendly argument between neighbours. Although common sense would tell you to stay away from madmen with guns. Malaysias' risk managers seem to have disagreed. Now they can tell the relatives of the victims "it's not our fault, the airspace was open you know".
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  #83  
Old 18.07.2014, 15:54
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

In the meantime the bodies and belongings there are not treated with respect. People who don't need to be there are just walking over things and they can take what they want. People who should be there, international specialists, policeforces to close the area, are not there.
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  #84  
Old 18.07.2014, 15:57
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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It's still a question of risk assesment...
I agree, but I think those assessing risk did the best they could with the information at hand. With so few incidents in the past, the logical assumption (up until this event) was that neither Ukraine nor Russia would be foolish enough to target a passenger plane and would focus only on military targets. Prior experience also indicated even if someone wanted to target commercial traffic it would require a certain level of knowledge and weaponry.

As others have pointed out, thousands of commercial flights go over conflict zones every week without incident. Neither side has anything to gain by bringing down a commercial jet. My guess is it was an overzealous "rebel" with enough training to launch the device, but not enough intelligence to distinguish between military and civilian aircraft.
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  #85  
Old 18.07.2014, 17:19
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I agree, but I think those assessing risk did the best they could with the information at hand. With so few incidents in the past, the logical assumption (up until this event) was that neither Ukraine nor Russia would be foolish enough to target a passenger plane and would focus only on military targets. Prior experience also indicated even if someone wanted to target commercial traffic it would require a certain level of knowledge and weaponry.

As others have pointed out, thousands of commercial flights go over conflict zones every week without incident. Neither side has anything to gain by bringing down a commercial jet. My guess is it was an overzealous "rebel" with enough training to launch the device, but not enough intelligence to distinguish between military and civilian aircraft.
The European authorties have to asses the risk, how does a country like Malaysia know what is happening on the ground thousands of km away. The final route is with Malaysia, I agree. If it was a codeshare flight how much input does KLM have in this decision.

Last edited by telandy; 18.07.2014 at 18:30.
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  #86  
Old 18.07.2014, 17:48
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Re: Israel/Palestinians won't start WW3. But this might....

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At least they found this one

It was not exatly lost Putin is lost for words on this one I still waiting for his cheap excuse
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  #87  
Old 18.07.2014, 17:50
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Re: Israel/Palestinians won't start WW3. But this might....

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It was not exatly lost Putin is lost for words on this one I still waiting for his cheap excuse
he gave a cheap excuse. Apparently it's "obvious" that the country over whose airspace the incident happened is responsible. Never heard that one before.
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  #88  
Old 18.07.2014, 18:44
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Ukraine State Security video of a BUK driving back to Russia today with two missiles missing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mICnsgEY7wE

Evidence of Russian involvement is overwhelming.

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The expert implicated Russia further, revealing that the former commander of Russian Air Force Special Operations Command, a Colonel-General, stated recently in an interview that the separatists did not have the expertise to operate the BUK launchers, that only Russian personnel could do so.


It's also suspicious, Dr Sutyagin said, that Russian news agency RIA Novosti reported the crash at 16.13 Moscow time, several minutes before the crash actually happened - at 16.20.
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  #89  
Old 18.07.2014, 18:44
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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As others have pointed out, thousands of commercial flights go over conflict zones every week without incident.
I hope this tragedy is going to change the way such risk is assessed. I find this risk assessment quite shabby to be honest. As someone suggested earlier, it is not okay to fly below 32,000 ft, but suddenly at 33,000 it is okay!

In my previous job, I worked in the maritime department of a big O&G company, and one of the things one would certainly consider in assessing risk is the impact of any incident on the current risk profile. I agree thousands of commercial flights go over certain conflict zones every week, but the moment there is documented evidence that a plane has been hit, irrespective of whether it is military or not, the risk level should be reassessed. As an example, when one of our competitor's vessel got arrested in a disputed maritime area in Latin America, we had to reassess our risk profile for one of our vessels which was working in the West African area.
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  #90  
Old 18.07.2014, 18:56
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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The European authorities have to asses the risk, how does a country like Malaysia know what is happening on the ground thousands of km away. The final route is with Malaysia, I agree. If it was a codeshare flight how much input does KLM have in this decision.
I don't have much aviation experience, but if it is anything like the maritime world, then the onus is also on the craft operator/ owner to assess the risk posed to their property. Many companies won't have a fully fledged risk department, but they certainly have input from companies which specialise in Risk analysis, before sailing to certain areas.
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  #91  
Old 18.07.2014, 19:12
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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The European authorties have to asses the risk, how does a country like Malaysia know what is happening on the ground thousands of km away.
They're an airline. People are entrusting their lives and safety to them. They're supposed to be professional. It seems cheap to me to say, it happened a long way away and how were we to know there was a war going on?

Quite possibly, being an act of warfare, their insurance won't even cough up. The relatives of the victims might not ever see any compensation.
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  #92  
Old 18.07.2014, 20:00
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

The idea that the Ukraine govt has anti aircraft missiles located
gin the middle of an area controlled by the pro-Russian people is just ludicrous.
The only possibility for this attack is the Russians or the separists; simply from the geography?
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  #93  
Old 18.07.2014, 20:05
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

The complete blame for over passing this region lies with Malaysian Airlines and its captain.

Regardless of the fact that the airspace was open above 33000 ft, what would the captain do if he had to do a emergency decent while flying this region?
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  #94  
Old 18.07.2014, 20:32
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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The complete blame for over passing this region lies with Malaysian Airlines and its captain.

Regardless of the fact that the airspace was open above 33000 ft, what would the captain do if he had to do a emergency decent while flying this region?
No - the complete blame lies with the prat who ordered the missile firing. All airlines up to this point had been using this airspace. You cannot single out one airline and a captain who's instructions come not only form head office, but also from ATC.

If it hadn't been Malaysia then there's a good chance it would have been Singapore given they were pretty much on the same flight path at the same time.

Last edited by Slaphead; 18.07.2014 at 20:54.
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  #95  
Old 18.07.2014, 20:34
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

One of the most shocking things were the pictures of the rebels pilfering through the wreckage gathering passports and possibly more.
It's a crime scene FFS

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Old 18.07.2014, 20:54
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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One of the most shocking things were the pictures of the rebels pilfering through the wreckage gathering passports and possibly more.
It's a crime scene FFS

What I find the most shocking are the rumours that the black box has already been found, recovered and is on it's way to Moscow. If that's true then we'll never know the full truth about this incident, at least while Putin is in charge.
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  #97  
Old 18.07.2014, 21:14
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Also read that about the black box already making its way to Putin.
Putin de merde, I wonder what story they will now concoct!
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  #98  
Old 18.07.2014, 21:55
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

OECD investigators were denied (by the "rebels") good enough access to the crash site/area.
US surveillance plane called AWACS was flying over eastern Poland around the time the attack happened. Quite a distance though.
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Old 18.07.2014, 22:17
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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One of the most shocking things were the pictures of the rebels pilfering through the wreckage gathering passports and possibly more.
It's a crime scene FFS

Remarkable condition
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  #100  
Old 18.07.2014, 22:22
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Remarkable condition
Not really. The plane didn't burn, it was shot down and crashed hard. Flat, thin books inside a pocket or bag aren't likely to be damaged. However, who knows what images/recordings/videos are true right now.
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