 | | | 
18.07.2014, 14:36
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: St Gallen
Posts: 1,269
Groaned at 27 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 578 Times in 330 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine | Quote: | |  | | | What I don't understand is, if this was an accidental take-down, how this plane was mistaken for a military plane?
Whoever it was who took this plane down with whatever sophisticated missile defense system must certainly be able to determine WHAT he is aiming at and taking down. I mean, I have an app on my iPhone that can tell me which plane is flying over which airspace at any given time, yet these guys just shoot and fire? | | | | | ... Apparently, the app was not updated.
| 
18.07.2014, 14:39
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,359
Groaned at 336 Times in 272 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine | Quote: | |  | | | The airspace according to the European agencies was open, so you cannot blame Malaysia for using this route. | | | | | It's still a question of risk assesment.
Following the crowd and being a sheep because the others are doing the same is no excuse at the end of the day.
A war is not a friendly argument between neighbours. Although common sense would tell you to stay away from madmen with guns. Malaysias' risk managers seem to have disagreed. Now they can tell the relatives of the victims "it's not our fault, the airspace was open you know".
| This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post: | | 
18.07.2014, 14:54
| Senior Member | | Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Basel
Posts: 342
Groaned at 16 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 205 Times in 101 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine
In the meantime the bodies and belongings there are not treated with respect. People who don't need to be there are just walking over things and they can take what they want. People who should be there, international specialists, policeforces to close the area, are not there.
| The following 3 users would like to thank kittekat for this useful post: | | 
18.07.2014, 14:57
|  | Moderately Amused | | Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Bern area
Posts: 11,798
Groaned at 98 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 20,859 Times in 9,188 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine | Quote: | |  | | | It's still a question of risk assesment... | | | | | I agree, but I think those assessing risk did the best they could with the information at hand. With so few incidents in the past, the logical assumption (up until this event) was that neither Ukraine nor Russia would be foolish enough to target a passenger plane and would focus only on military targets. Prior experience also indicated even if someone wanted to target commercial traffic it would require a certain level of knowledge and weaponry.
As others have pointed out, thousands of commercial flights go over conflict zones every week without incident. Neither side has anything to gain by bringing down a commercial jet. My guess is it was an overzealous "rebel" with enough training to launch the device, but not enough intelligence to distinguish between military and civilian aircraft.
| 
18.07.2014, 16:19
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Thurgau
Posts: 2,064
Groaned at 5 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 637 Times in 380 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine | Quote: | |  | | | I agree, but I think those assessing risk did the best they could with the information at hand. With so few incidents in the past, the logical assumption (up until this event) was that neither Ukraine nor Russia would be foolish enough to target a passenger plane and would focus only on military targets. Prior experience also indicated even if someone wanted to target commercial traffic it would require a certain level of knowledge and weaponry.
As others have pointed out, thousands of commercial flights go over conflict zones every week without incident. Neither side has anything to gain by bringing down a commercial jet. My guess is it was an overzealous "rebel" with enough training to launch the device, but not enough intelligence to distinguish between military and civilian aircraft. | | | | | The European authorties have to asses the risk, how does a country like Malaysia know what is happening on the ground thousands of km away. The final route is with Malaysia, I agree. If it was a codeshare flight how much input does KLM have in this decision.
Last edited by telandy; 18.07.2014 at 17:30.
| 
18.07.2014, 16:48
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: canada
Posts: 6,916
Groaned at 182 Times in 142 Posts
Thanked 6,195 Times in 3,408 Posts
| | Re: Israel/Palestinians won't start WW3. But this might.... | Quote: | |  | | | At least they found this one | | | | |
It was not exatly lost  Putin is lost for words on this one  I still waiting for his cheap excuse | 
18.07.2014, 16:50
| Banned | | Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,185
Groaned at 316 Times in 166 Posts
Thanked 2,127 Times in 928 Posts
| | Re: Israel/Palestinians won't start WW3. But this might.... | Quote: | |  | | | It was not exatly lost Putin is lost for words on this one I still waiting for his cheap excuse  | | | | | he gave a cheap excuse. Apparently it's "obvious" that the country over whose airspace the incident happened is responsible. Never heard that one before.
| 
18.07.2014, 17:44
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: CHE
Posts: 1,361
Groaned at 75 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 3,225 Times in 1,406 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine
Ukraine State Security video of a BUK driving back to Russia today with two missiles missing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mICnsgEY7wE
Evidence of Russian involvement is overwhelming. | Quote: |  | | | The expert implicated Russia further, revealing that the former commander of Russian Air Force Special Operations Command, a Colonel-General, stated recently in an interview that the separatists did not have the expertise to operate the BUK launchers, that only Russian personnel could do so.
It's also suspicious, Dr Sutyagin said, that Russian news agency RIA Novosti reported the crash at 16.13 Moscow time, several minutes before the crash actually happened - at 16.20. | | | | | | The following 5 users would like to thank esto for this useful post: | | 
18.07.2014, 17:44
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: AG
Posts: 863
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 1,255 Times in 543 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine | Quote: | |  | | |
As others have pointed out, thousands of commercial flights go over conflict zones every week without incident.
| | | | | I hope this tragedy is going to change the way such risk is assessed. I find this risk assessment quite shabby to be honest. As someone suggested earlier, it is not okay to fly below 32,000 ft, but suddenly at 33,000 it is okay!
In my previous job, I worked in the maritime department of a big O&G company, and one of the things one would certainly consider in assessing risk is the impact of any incident on the current risk profile. I agree thousands of commercial flights go over certain conflict zones every week, but the moment there is documented evidence that a plane has been hit, irrespective of whether it is military or not, the risk level should be reassessed. As an example, when one of our competitor's vessel got arrested in a disputed maritime area in Latin America, we had to reassess our risk profile for one of our vessels which was working in the West African area.
| The following 2 users would like to thank Clumsy Maman for this useful post: | | 
18.07.2014, 17:56
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: AG
Posts: 863
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 1,255 Times in 543 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine | Quote: | |  | | | The European authorities have to asses the risk, how does a country like Malaysia know what is happening on the ground thousands of km away. The final route is with Malaysia, I agree. If it was a codeshare flight how much input does KLM have in this decision. | | | | | I don't have much aviation experience, but if it is anything like the maritime world, then the onus is also on the craft operator/ owner to assess the risk posed to their property. Many companies won't have a fully fledged risk department, but they certainly have input from companies which specialise in Risk analysis, before sailing to certain areas.
| The following 2 users would like to thank Clumsy Maman for this useful post: | | 
18.07.2014, 18:12
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,359
Groaned at 336 Times in 272 Posts
Thanked 26,263 Times in 11,000 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine | Quote: | |  | | | The European authorties have to asses the risk, how does a country like Malaysia know what is happening on the ground thousands of km away. | | | | | They're an airline. People are entrusting their lives and safety to them. They're supposed to be professional. It seems cheap to me to say, it happened a long way away and how were we to know there was a war going on?
Quite possibly, being an act of warfare, their insurance won't even cough up. The relatives of the victims might not ever see any compensation.
| The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post: | | 
18.07.2014, 19:00
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: May 2008 Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 12,560
Groaned at 746 Times in 628 Posts
Thanked 24,654 Times in 12,912 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine
The idea that the Ukraine govt has anti aircraft missiles located
gin the middle of an area controlled by the pro-Russian people is just ludicrous.
The only possibility for this attack is the Russians or the separists; simply from the geography?
| This user would like to thank marton for this useful post: | | 
18.07.2014, 19:05
| Banned | | Join Date: May 2010 Location: geneve
Posts: 731
Groaned at 287 Times in 110 Posts
Thanked 1,374 Times in 546 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine
The complete blame for over passing this region lies with Malaysian Airlines and its captain.
Regardless of the fact that the airspace was open above 33000 ft, what would the captain do if he had to do a emergency decent while flying this region?
| This user groans at idefix for this post: | | 
18.07.2014, 19:32
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: May 2007 Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,223
Groaned at 34 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 9,408 Times in 2,870 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine | Quote: | |  | | | The complete blame for over passing this region lies with Malaysian Airlines and its captain.
Regardless of the fact that the airspace was open above 33000 ft, what would the captain do if he had to do a emergency decent while flying this region? | | | | | No - the complete blame lies with the prat who ordered the missile firing. All airlines up to this point had been using this airspace. You cannot single out one airline and a captain who's instructions come not only form head office, but also from ATC.
If it hadn't been Malaysia then there's a good chance it would have been Singapore given they were pretty much on the same flight path at the same time.
Last edited by Slaphead; 18.07.2014 at 19:54.
| The following 8 users would like to thank Slaphead for this useful post: | | 
18.07.2014, 19:34
|  | à la mod | | Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: ZG
Posts: 5,878
Groaned at 129 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 17,793 Times in 5,634 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine
One of the most shocking things were the pictures of the rebels pilfering through the wreckage gathering passports and possibly more.
It's a crime scene FFS | 
18.07.2014, 19:54
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: May 2007 Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,223
Groaned at 34 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 9,408 Times in 2,870 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine | Quote: | |  | | | One of the most shocking things were the pictures of the rebels pilfering through the wreckage gathering passports and possibly more.
It's a crime scene FFS  | | | | | What I find the most shocking are the rumours that the black box has already been found, recovered and is on it's way to Moscow. If that's true then we'll never know the full truth about this incident, at least while Putin is in charge.
| The following 6 users would like to thank Slaphead for this useful post: | | This user groans at Slaphead for this post: | | 
18.07.2014, 20:14
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: AG
Posts: 863
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 1,255 Times in 543 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine
Also read that about the black box already making its way to Putin.
Putin de merde, I wonder what story they will now concoct!
| This user would like to thank Clumsy Maman for this useful post: | | 
18.07.2014, 20:55
| Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Vaud
Posts: 1,466
Groaned at 115 Times in 75 Posts
Thanked 1,624 Times in 911 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine
OECD investigators were denied (by the "rebels") good enough access to the crash site/area.
US surveillance plane called AWACS was flying over eastern Poland around the time the attack happened. Quite a distance though.
| This user would like to thank yacek for this useful post: | | 
18.07.2014, 21:17
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Formerly in Neuchatel
Posts: 3,056
Groaned at 231 Times in 158 Posts
Thanked 5,977 Times in 2,188 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine | Quote: | |  | | | One of the most shocking things were the pictures of the rebels pilfering through the wreckage gathering passports and possibly more.
It's a crime scene FFS  | | | | | Remarkable condition
| 
18.07.2014, 21:22
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Basel
Posts: 9,130
Groaned at 170 Times in 153 Posts
Thanked 25,643 Times in 6,892 Posts
| | Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine | Quote: | |  | | | Remarkable condition | | | | | Not really. The plane didn't burn, it was shot down and crashed hard. Flat, thin books inside a pocket or bag aren't likely to be damaged. However, who knows what images/recordings/videos are true right now.
| The following 2 users would like to thank adrianlondon for this useful post: | |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | | Thread Tools | | Display Modes | Linear Mode |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts HTML code is Off | | | All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:12. | |