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  #101  
Old 18.07.2014, 22:31
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Aparantly not all airlines were using that route. British Airways have made a point that they deliberately avoided that route due to the risks.

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No - the complete blame lies with the prat who ordered the missile firing. All airlines up to this point had been using this airspace. You cannot single out one airline and a captain who's instructions come not only form head office, but also from ATC.

If it hadn't been Malaysia then there's a good chance it would have been Singapore given they were pretty much on the same flight path at the same time.
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  #102  
Old 18.07.2014, 22:31
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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The complete blame for over passing this region lies with Malaysian Airlines and its captain.
You think the captain does the flight planning?? Haha I love to see that! The flight planning is done in operations.
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  #103  
Old 18.07.2014, 22:31
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Wow, 80 kids died on that plane

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ple-board.html

Alot of tragic stories. I saw an interview with a Dutch customs lady who was processing VAT forms for the people on this flight, even she was pretty shook up knowing all the people, families, kids she just helped are now suddenly gone
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  #104  
Old 18.07.2014, 22:35
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

According to BBC News this evening, witnesses interviewed reported that bodies and other debris rained down from the sky.



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Not really. The plane didn't burn, it was shot down and crashed hard. Flat, thin books inside a pocket or bag aren't likely to be damaged. However, who knows what images/recordings/videos are true right now.
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  #105  
Old 18.07.2014, 22:39
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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According to BBC News this evening, witnesses interviewed reported that bodies and other debris rained down from the sky.
If I threw my passport out of a window of a very tall building, it would just float down and land undamaged. So I stand by my comment that it's not unreasonable to expect passports to be in good condition.
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  #106  
Old 18.07.2014, 23:02
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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What I don't understand is, if this was an accidental take-down, how this plane was mistaken for a military plane?

Whoever it was who took this plane down with whatever sophisticated missile defense system must certainly be able to determine WHAT he is aiming at and taking down. I mean, I have an app on my iPhone that can tell me which plane is flying over which airspace at any given time, yet these guys just shoot and fire?
Maybe whoever did this was using that app...

I've actually stopped believing anything related to this conflict - too often both sides have been caught lying.

I'm just sad because something like 80 children died....
...and I'm actually paranoid enough to take into account that someone chose a plane with so many children on board deliberately.
After all, when people see the bodies of dead children, usually all rational thinking is gone.
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  #107  
Old 18.07.2014, 23:08
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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The idea that the Ukraine govt has anti aircraft missiles located
gin the middle of an area controlled by the pro-Russian people is just ludicrous.
The only possibility for this attack is the Russians or the separists; simply from the geography?
or someone who wanted to make it look like the russians...
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  #108  
Old 18.07.2014, 23:16
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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or someone who wanted to make it look like the russians...
But why? A big risk for a very small benefit? Does not make sense?
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  #109  
Old 18.07.2014, 23:41
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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One of the most shocking things were the pictures of the rebels pilfering through the wreckage gathering passports and possibly more.
It's a crime scene FFS
...
These people are going through war. Have you seen the recent shocking images of dead children and destroyed buildings from the area? I am not shocked at all that they don't even think about preserving the crime scene. They see similar crimes every day.
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  #110  
Old 18.07.2014, 23:57
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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But why? A big risk for a very small benefit? Does not make sense?
A small benefit for whom?
It wouldn't be the first war that used a false-flag operation to get things going.
After all, some people benefit quite handsomely from war.

I realize that I'm probably supporting the conspiracy-theories that the Russian government is spinning.
But OTH, much of the conspiracy-theories we had about internet-surveillance turned out to be true (or too weak in some cases) last year.
So, I'm not going to bet whose theory is too crazy to be true.

Maybe it was really just a pro-Russian idiot with a ground-to-air missile this time.
It wouldn't be the first time that a weapons-deal that looked brilliant on the first look, backfired later.

Hopefully at least the families can get to burying the bodies this time.
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  #111  
Old 19.07.2014, 00:00
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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But why? A big risk for a very small benefit? Does not make sense?
Maybe somebody in their evil mind who pulled the trigger had decided that sacrificing nearly 300 people will either help to exert the pressure to end the conflict or had miscalculated that it will make it even worse on global scale?

No matter what it's a sad tragedy where innocent people became victims. One would also think that Malysian airlines have a really unlucky track record this year. Irony, they lost their plane in Asia months ago searching swaths of ocean - now their have found one of their own on the ground in Ukraine.
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  #112  
Old 19.07.2014, 00:11
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

So tragic for all the families involved...


so so so dangerous for the whole world- I shudder to think of the possible consequences.
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  #113  
Old 19.07.2014, 00:38
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

I think the US (especially AZ Senator McInsane) needs to keep out of this; while I have my doubts that Ukraine was the resources to properly investigate this; the Netherlands, the country who lost the most citizens, certainly has the resources to investigate this incident, perhaps with jointly with a neutral party like Sweden; then turn all the evidence over to Carla and crew at the Hague.
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  #114  
Old 19.07.2014, 01:14
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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i think the us (especially az senator mcinsane) needs to keep out of this; while i have my doubts that ukraine was the resources to properly investigate this; the netherlands, the country who lost the most citizens, certainly has the resources to investigate this incident, perhaps with jointly with a neutral party like sweden; then turn all the evidence over to carla and crew at the hague.

:d
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  #115  
Old 19.07.2014, 01:34
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I think the US (especially AZ Senator McInsane) needs to keep out of this; while I have my doubts that Ukraine was the resources to properly investigate this; the Netherlands, the country who lost the most citizens, certainly has the resources to investigate this incident, perhaps with jointly with a neutral party like Sweden; then turn all the evidence over to Carla and crew at the Hague.

The Netherlands are probably the least qualified to investigate this.
Do you think a fire-inspector who lost his family when his house got burned down is allowed to investigate that same fire?
Only in Hollywood-movies.

The trouble is, everybody has vested interests in this conflict: Europe, US, Russia - you name it.
Hey - now it really looks a bit like "1914". Of course, these days it takes more than a lucky shot from the hand-gun of a nationalist looney to rally the masses. But 80 dead children, a couple of adults and a plane-crew might just do.
Timing is convenient, too: just after the World-Cup party and before the end of the TdF - media attention is guaranteed, as well as a certain depressive mood (post wc-hangover).
Very clever.
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  #116  
Old 19.07.2014, 01:48
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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The Netherlands are probably the least qualified to investigate this.
Do you think a fire-inspector who lost his family when his house got burned down is allowed to investigate that same fire?
I see the analogy you are trying to make, but I trust the Dutch with the investigation like this, they are known for there honesty and integrity; they will not allow politics to taint an investigation of this level.
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  #117  
Old 19.07.2014, 02:07
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I see the analogy you are trying to make, but I trust the Dutch with the investigation like this, they are known for there honesty and integrity; they will not allow politics to taint n investigation of this level.
Well good job YOU trust them. Let me save all of you special people the headache - it was the Russians. And neither the Hague nor Netherlands have the clout to bring Russia to account.
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  #118  
Old 19.07.2014, 03:19
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Aparantly not all airlines were using that route. British Airways have made a point that they deliberately avoided that route due to the risks.
As did Air France

************************************************** *******************************

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You think the captain does the flight planning?? Haha I love to see that! The flight planning is done in operations.
Sure, except that the captain does final choices

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""""""""

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You're quite right. According to the BBC Lufthansa has diverted 4 flights currently in the air to avoid the Ukraine. I would imagine most other airlines will now follow suit for their respective flights.

Not a good year for Malaysia Airlines - though in this instance it wouldn't appear to be their fault, at least initially.
Swiss now finally allso has diverted all flights in the area away from the EastUkrainian - Russian areas


"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

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You're quite right. According to the BBC Lufthansa has diverted 4 flights currently in the air to avoid the Ukraine. I would imagine most other airlines will now follow suit for their respective flights.

Not a good year for Malaysia Airlines - though in this instance it wouldn't appear to be their fault, at least initially.
Swiss now finally allso has diverted all flights in the area away from the EastUkrainian - Russian areas

Last edited by Wollishofener; 19.07.2014 at 03:30.
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  #119  
Old 19.07.2014, 03:29
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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A small benefit for whom?
It wouldn't be the first war that used a false-flag operation to get things going.
After all, some people benefit quite handsomely from war.

I realize that I'm probably supporting the conspiracy-theories that the Russian government is spinning.
But OTH, much of the conspiracy-theories we had about internet-surveillance turned out to be true (or too weak in some cases) last year.
So, I'm not going to bet whose theory is too crazy to be true.

Maybe it was really just a pro-Russian idiot with a ground-to-air missile this time.
It wouldn't be the first time that a weapons-deal that looked brilliant on the first look, backfired later.

Hopefully at least the families can get to burying the bodies this time.
About "A small benefit for whom?" A small benefit for the Ukraine! They already have the support of Europe and USA who are sanctioning Russia. What exactly would they have to gain from shooting down an airliner? What would be the benefit; more countries joining the creation of sanctions? which countries exactly? They already have the important ones!
The risk is if they did this then they would lose their US and Europe support; why would they take this risk?

Please explain what is the big benefit that you see Ukraine would get from such a false flag action?
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  #120  
Old 19.07.2014, 03:35
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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The Netherlands are probably the least qualified to investigate this.
Do you think a fire-inspector who lost his family when his house got burned down is allowed to investigate that same fire?
Only in Hollywood-movies.

The trouble is, everybody has vested interests in this conflict: Europe, US, Russia - you name it.
Hey - now it really looks a bit like "1914". Of course, these days it takes more than a lucky shot from the hand-gun of a nationalist looney to rally the masses. But 80 dead children, a couple of adults and a plane-crew might just do.
Timing is convenient, too: just after the World-Cup party and before the end of the TdF - media attention is guaranteed, as well as a certain depressive mood (post wc-hangover).
Very clever.
Ukraine already has the support of Europe and USA who are sanctioning Russia. What exactly would they have to gain from shooting down an airliner? What would be the benefit; more countries joining the creation of sanctions? which countries exactly? Ukraine already has the support of the important countries!

About "rally the masses" What does this mean? Do you think the pro Russian separatists in Ukraine are remotely interested in the views of the masses?
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