people in operations are NOT clairvoyants. things may change during the time an airplane is enroute. I remember a Cyprus Airways flight Dubai-Larnaca right when the Iraqi army was marching in. Into Kuwait I mean. The Captain told us step by step that and how he had changed the route. In the three days before I always place my fully loaded rental car in a good position to get out to Oman in case of emergency

Looks like the crash has gotten another twist,
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/07...archer_deaths/
Humanity it´s self lost out here, I wonder if we can colletivly sue that triggerhappy Arschloch.
Then again there is a good chance that he has already been "spoken" to.

The B-777 has a superb safety record.

Heathrow incident - first 777 hull loss - 13 years after entering service. Zero fatalities.

Asiana - Pilot error, you can't possibly attribute that to the aircraft.

MH370 - ?????

MH17 - it was shot down - it could have been any aircraft type, does that make it less safe to fly on a 777? Of course it doesn't.

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Despite global agreement that international investigators should have full access to the crash site, pro-Russian militants don't seem to be fully cooperating so far:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/18/wo...irlines-crash/

With the BUK launcher probably either destroyed or back in Russia, and any missile fragments and other evidence already removed from the scene, I doubt any investigation on the ground will yeild results in any case. US Intelligence monitoring the area will probably be able to paint a clear picture using intercepted phone calls, satellite imagery, etc.

Sadly, I doubt any kind of criminal justice will be served. Well, I suppose the rebels who actually pulled the trigger on the BUK will probably all be killed to get rid of evidence. Let's see if rebel commander Girkin (aka "Strelkov"), who was gleefully bragging about "downing a bird" during the 777 crash will be subject to any punishment from the Kremlin. I think the only real "justice" that can be done here is for the international community to send forces in to help Ukraine route out these pro-Russian rebels and take all their heavy weaponry away so that nothing like this happens again.

I think you're missing the point here. I'm not saying that the 777 isn't a safe aircraft, all I was doing was pointing out that the 777 doesn't have a peerless safety record as another poster suggested it had.

If I may pay devil's advocate for a moment;

Why should there be any kind of criminal justice served?

A person in an active war zone mistakenly shot down a civilian aircraft flying in that zone. It's just one of those things that happen in war.

That's why we invented phrases like "collateral damage" and "friendly fire".

There are no criminals here, just unfortunate circumstance.

the 777 is a "WORKHORSE" already but it is not a fireproof army tank

and exactly in the area in question, you have more military hardware (on both sides ) than anywhere else in the world

I was wrong to say peerless: it's too strong a word. Let's just say that, up to the first MH accident, it had a safety record that was among the best in the industry.

This is perhaps a better question asked at The Hague, though under the circumstances that particular court itself may even need to recuse itself, considering the number of Dutch passengers aboard.

I refer to the International Criminal Court, and I bring it up because this bit of devil's advocacy you describe would suggest that war is a free for all, genocides, shooting at ambulances, good old fashion raping and pillaging, are acceptable behaviors attached to international conflicts.

After all, these things happen. Perhaps, and so far, they happen less often, now that the international community has a general consensus against such behaviors.

Wherever such a case may be tried it would be the understanding, motivations, and training of the aforementioned 'person' under review. This was an accident, but it's not like Mr Bean wandered by and thought he had finally found the local equivalent of a Selecta. Someone pressed a button, likely a series of buttons, for this to happen. This is at least two gross counts of gross negligence. Please forgive the gallows humor, but it is gross negligence at the least.

Unfortunately I think sending NATO forces would greatly exacerbate the situation, and the UN basically has its hands tied in utilizing the peace keeping force because Russia is on the Security counsel.

Anyone else here wonder if they're living closer to the Ukraine than they'd otherwise prefer?

I partially agree with you, it seems to be an "accident" in that the rebels thought they were targeting a military plane and shot a civilian one instead.

However, I would say that the pro-Russian rebels are in illegal possession of sophisticated weaponry that they don't know how to use properly, which qualifies them as criminals. This equipment was either stolen from Ukraine's military, or else given to them by Russia, in either case it's illegal.

Maybe it's time the EU stood up to Putin's aggression before it's 1939 again?

Keep Italy out of it

About securing the scene - the rebels won't allow it.
From the official Ukrainian web-site:


The Russian-led terrorists are preventing access of the international community and foreign governments to the location where the Malaysian Airlines airplane crashed on July 17, and are obstructing the launch of an investigation.
The Government was informed that the terrorists moved 38 bodies of the victims to the morgue in Donetsk, where the “experts” with Russian accent claimed that they intend to perform autopsies. The terrorist groups are also seeking to obtain large cargo transport to move the remnants of the aircraft to Russia.
http://www.kmu.gov.ua/control/en/pub...t_id=244314975

My friend is Ukrainian and he has been commenting on all of this on an on-going basis. Just after the plane crashed, the separatisis blocked the acces of rescuing services to the site.


Yesterday he wrote that some separatists claimed the whole thing was a conspiracy. That the corpses found were 'not fresh' and that they must have been packed into the plane which was to be crushed on purpose, just to make Russia look guilty.


I couldn't believe this - who in their right mind would say such rubbish officially. It's so insane. But today I checked the Innternet and it turns out that Strielkov gave an interview to Russkaya Vesna, a pro-Russian web-site:


The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna quoted separatist leader Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the MH17 crash site that "a significant number of the bodies weren't fresh," adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...-dead-24622107

In the Soviet Union, baseless conspiracy theories were generally accepted at face value as facts, sounds like he's taking a page out of that old playbook.

They have to brain-wash their own people, that's the purpose of this propaganda (like WMD in Iraq). Looks like Germany struck a deal already, they don't want US to get in-between (thus expelled CIA's top intelligence official from US embassy). That's not for a reason. So unless US pushes hard, Ukraine might see rocket attacks on their ground troops directly from Russia.

But it is not an active war zone is it? Nobody actually declared war? It is a bunch of heavily armed civilians claiming to be Ukrainian freedom fighters despite the strange anomaly that most of their leaders are Russian citizens. There is an argument that by taking up arms against their own Government they are criminals?

This so awful for the families of the victims; how can anyone support such ruthless and cynical separatist leaders.

It is sad to see that this terrible and tragic event is being already manipulated by various governments, including both the Ukrainian and the Russian governments, to literally try and score points against the other side.

Likewise, it is also so sad that the media in various countries are banging out blatant accusations and conspiracy theories against one side or the other, without concrete evidence, in order to stoke up bad feelings against "the other side".

I also find it distasteful that some forum members jump to absurd conclusions purely because they have made up their own minds despite the absence of all facts.

I can not believe that the Ukrainians shot the plane down, nor do I believe that the Russians did.

I do believe that it was most likely brought down by the rebels/seperatists accidentally, possibly with a missile supplied directly from the Russian side but more likely from one of the ones lost by the Ukrainians to the rebels, although I would suspect that those responsible will try and distort the truth in order to avoid being made to face up to their responsibilities.

However, apparently, despite what Obama says, it is still not 100 % certain that it was a surface-to-air missile, and the investigators need to get on site and be allowed to do their job. The practicalities of that are not so easy, especially as they all seem to have to go via Kiev first. Maybe it would have been easier if they had entered from the Russian side but I suppose the Ukrainian ( and some Western ), governments, would not be keen on that as it would be giving too much recognition to the importance and power of Russia in the conflict.

But certainly, wherever possible, those responsible should be brought to account for their actions in a court of law, and to say that this is not possible or not warranted as the area is in a conflict or war zone, and it just happens to be another case of what happens in war is simply absurd. Full attempts should be made to bring justice, regardless if those attempts will succeed or not. Past errors that lead to tremendous loss of civilian life, i.e. Lusitania or the Iran Air Airbus, do not justify not trying to bring justice here.

Finally, the accusations that there has been pilfering on the site is understandable due to the circumstances of being in a war-zone - but it is nevertheless absolutely appalling and should be stopped by those in control there - i.e. the rebels. If not, then those should also be held accountable for that. But as for the accusations that the rebels are removing the bodies : well, that I can understand and hopefully they are being removed to morgues as quickly as possible. I would hate to know that one of my loved ones was lieing out there in a sunflower field decomposing under the 30 degrees and more sun and exposed to any marauding rodents.