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  #141  
Old 19.07.2014, 18:10
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Do you understand what "devil's advocate" means?
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  #142  
Old 19.07.2014, 18:25
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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... and the investigators need to get on site and be allowed to do their job. The practicalities of that are not so easy, especially as they all seem to have to go via Kiev first. Maybe it would have been easier if they had entered from the Russian side but I suppose the Ukrainian ( and some Western ), governments, would not be keen on that as it would be giving too much recognition to the importance and power of Russia in the conflict.

Independent investigators (OECD) are there but denied access by the rebels while means are seeked to transport the wreck to Russia for "investigation".
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  #143  
Old 19.07.2014, 18:29
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Bear in mind that a lot of the rebels were trained in the Ukrainian forces before the revolution and some would have served in the Soviet Union armed forces.

The Ukrainians, Russians and the Rebels all had the equipment and skills to bring down this aircraft but my bet would be on the rebels. Not deliberately but still a horrendous, tragic mistake.
We should not forget that some days before this tragic event the rebels shot down an Ukrainian military transport that was over 6,000m; so proving they have a Baku and the skills to use it.
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  #144  
Old 19.07.2014, 18:35
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

I did a little walk around my quartier here in Geneva last night, it was so hot and i have no fan.

Numerous flats had put a candle out on the windowsill. I hope it was for those poor people that did not need to die. A sort of silent prayer whatever colour, religion etc.

Myself, i don't care who is to blame. I just am thinking of all those families around the world right now who are in mourning and broken.

The bastards will be brought to justice.

For now, i am thinking of the victims and their families.

My candle will be lit tonight.

The picture of that horrible man holding up a teddy bear got me going. Somewhere in the World a family will see that and recognise it..... And the looting has started. Stealing jewelry, money etc.

I think it was the BBC that advised families to cancel passports and credit cards, because they could be used. Who are those savages that think they can get away with a shopping spree on a dead persons credit card?

My heart is heavy.

Last edited by Patsycat; 19.07.2014 at 18:47.
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  #145  
Old 19.07.2014, 18:39
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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However, apparently, despite what Obama says, it is still not 100 % certain that it was a surface-to-air missile, and the investigators need to get on site and be allowed to do their job.
The US can detect missile launches of this type with high accuracy from satellite-based systems. If Obama and other US representative are already going on record stating it was a surface-to-air missile, then I'm pretty sure they had the proof already moments after it happened.

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Since the Cold War, the U.S. Department of Defense has had a multibillion-dollar space-based system to provide early warning for intercontinental ballistic missiles.
"It is a very, very precise system that has constant coverage, especially over Russia and Ukraine," said Riki Ellison, founder of the Missile Defense Advocacy Alliance.
Starting in the 1970s, the Pentagon has launched a series of high-altitude satellites with Earth-facing infrared telescopes as part of its Defense Support Program, or DSP. That constellation has kept a continuous watch on the planet for the hot plumes of exhaust from missiles to warn the military and intelligence communities about possible strikes and battlefield threats.
In the past few years, DSP has undergone a major upgrade, becoming the Space Based Infrared System (SBIRS), with the launch of better satellites that can detect faint missiles faster.


It's likely that the strike on MH17 showed up as an alarming blip on screens at Buckley Air Force Base in Colorado where those data from the SBIRS is processed. The detection is precise enough to detect where a missile was fired from and what kind of missile it was.

"Each missile has a different signature plume," Ellison said.
http://www.space.com/26571-military-...sile-mh17.html
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  #146  
Old 19.07.2014, 18:42
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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The bastards will be brought to justice.
They weren't the other two times that passenger aircraft were shot down, so why should it be any different this time?

Tom
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  #147  
Old 19.07.2014, 18:51
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

I'm afraid that in this case we might never learn the real truth who did it, given political aspects and sensitivity of this kind of circumstances. Sure there will be a perpetrator or scape goat nominated for that sake, but let's see. Unlike in action movie somewhere in the middle of nowhere our hero is seeking revenge exactly knows whom to punish. It's devastating that's just a morbid reality of EU that should be free of wars nowadays. Mind boggling!
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  #148  
Old 19.07.2014, 20:02
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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They weren't the other two times that passenger aircraft were shot down, so why should it be any different this time?

Tom
CNN claims that since 1973 at least five passenger planes have been shot down.
By the way, in 2001 the Ukrainian military has shot down a Russian passenger jet by mistake, killing all 78 people aboard.

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• Siberian Airlines Flight 1812 -- On October 4, 2001, a Siberian Airlines Tupelov 154 headed from Tel Aviv, Israel, to Novosibirsk, Russia, was shot down and plunged into the Black Sea, killing all 78 aboard, most of them Russian-born Israelis. The Ukrainian military denied at first but later admitted its military mistakenly shot down the plane during a training exercise
.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/17/wo...own/index.html
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  #149  
Old 19.07.2014, 20:27
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Sometimes I will have to break a bad habit of not reading every single meaningful tweet or post on the EF. The forlorn answers might be laying not so far ahead:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...-crash-3883544

The somewhat cryptic tweet reads: "Soon to be shot down over the ruins of the liner packed full of innocent euro-tourists. Tse will be the occasion for the official invitation to NATO. So I see. "
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  #150  
Old 19.07.2014, 21:20
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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But it is not an active war zone is it? Nobody actually declared war? It is a bunch of heavily armed civilians claiming to be Ukrainian freedom fighters despite the strange anomaly that most of their leaders are Russian citizens. There is an argument that by taking up arms against their own Government they are criminals?
Sure, just as the Vietnam war was a "police action"
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  #151  
Old 19.07.2014, 21:35
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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CNN claims that since 1973 at least five passenger planes have been shot down.
By the way, in 2001 the Ukrainian military has shot down a Russian passenger jet by mistake, killing all 78 people aboard.

.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/17/wo...own/index.html
Just for balance
"On September 1, 1983, 239 people aboard a Korean Air Lines flight bound from New York to Seoul were killed when the passenger jet was shot down by Soviet fighters during the Cold War.
The downing produced a giant outcry at the time, though the full facts did not become known until after the Cold War's end."
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  #152  
Old 19.07.2014, 21:54
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

I have just thought this thread was dedicated to particular airliner that was shot down over Ukraine instead of statistics of which airlines had impeccable record.

Just watching CNN and Ukraine's PM statement. Conspiracy theories aside. Has anyone's mind crossed the question that none of the suspected parties was truly involved? How about somebody desperately wanted to make us believe that responsibility lays in hands of ... Never mind.

Last edited by jacek; 19.07.2014 at 22:51.
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  #153  
Old 19.07.2014, 21:58
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Just for balance
"On September 1, 1983, 239 people aboard a Korean Air Lines flight bound from New York to Seoul were killed when the passenger jet was shot down by Soviet fighters during the Cold War.
The downing produced a giant outcry at the time, though the full facts did not become known until after the Cold War's end."
"Just for balance" -- to tip the balance in favor of which side? There is no Soviet Union any more, and in 1983 both Russia and Ukraine have been part of it, together with other 13 republics
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  #154  
Old 19.07.2014, 22:00
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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I have just thought this thread was dedicated to particular airliner that was shot down over Ukraine instead of statistics of which airlines had impeccable record.

Just watching CNN and Ukraine's PM statement. Conspiracy theories aside. Has anyone's mind crossed the question that none of the suspected parties was truly involved? How about somebody desperately wanted to make us believe that responsible is in hands of ... Never mind.
So some stranger was in this area of Ukraine with a very large, expensive and advanced anti aircraft missile system
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  #155  
Old 19.07.2014, 22:00
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Sure, just as the Vietnam war was a "police action"
Technically, it was.

Same with Iran and Iraq.

Last war the US was involved in was WW2.

Tom
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  #156  
Old 19.07.2014, 22:05
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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So some stranger was in this area of Ukraine with a very large, expensive and advanced anti aircraft missile system
I did not say a stranger. Somebody who knew a terrain and had enough training to use the advanced ground to air missiles. It could only be one of the conflicting sides well trained militaries. Maybe somebody wanted it to look like ... I just find it overly simplified and too obvious. I just have hard time to believe because there is too much at stake just to simply pull a trigger. What works on global scale these days are provocations, framing one another and fabricating the evidence. Just saying.

Last edited by jacek; 19.07.2014 at 22:53.
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  #157  
Old 20.07.2014, 01:47
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

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Ukraine already has the support of Europe and USA who are sanctioning Russia. What exactly would they have to gain from shooting down an airliner? What would be the benefit; more countries joining the creation of sanctions? which countries exactly? Ukraine already has the support of the important countries!

About "rally the masses" What does this mean? Do you think the pro Russian separatists in Ukraine are remotely interested in the views of the masses?
IMO, the people in Ukraine are clearly only pawns in a game of chess. Both sides.
Useful idiots, if you allow.
My impression was that the support for sanctions against Russia in Europe (and Germany especially) was weak. Germany is an export-oriented country and Russia is a market...
(There's a reason the CIA et.al. are very interested in German politics - probably more so than German citizens themselves...)
Even worse, support for Ukraine in the population in Germany wasn't particularly strong either. Thanks to the recent bustings of CIA-spies in Germany, the population has somehow woken-up to the fact that while German politicians liked to describe the relations to the US a "partnership", it's more like the US has 0wned Germany for 60 years (and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future) - further fueling anti-american tendencies and a general distrust against Uncle Sam.
No government can engage in a war (or even a conflict) for a longer time without the support of the population. Even in Germany and the US, where people re-vote the same bozos into office time and time again.
People like simple questions, simple answers, simple lines on the map. Black and white.
The conflict was already too complicated, too diffuse and too far away to allow any politician in Europe to devote any real resources to it (diverting them from somebody else).
That has changed now.
The conflict is "real" now, it's close to home (sort of) and it's dead-simple: somebody shot down a passenger plane. People died, kids died. There's exasperation, horror, tears at Departures and Arrivals. There will be (closed) coffins, flowers later on. Public figures signing condolence-books in front of two hundred international journalists, a couple of trending hashtags and Facebook-likes for the live-streamed funeral-service.
Of course, it's not like men will line up in front of army quarters in Germany and demand to be inlisted, so that we can conquer Russia again ("This time, we'll pack winter-boots, really").
Now, no politician can (in his right mind) call for an ending of the sanctions.
It has come down to the "...but think of the children!" level.

It would really be interesting to know how these people (the separatists) supposedly got hold of a couple of BUK missiles.

This (lengthy) report describes a (secret) depot of Russian weapons in Texas:
http://cryptome.org/2014/05/cia-midwest-depot.pdf

And who told them how to operate them - though I admit there might be a lot of people out there who know this back from their time in the military service.
The most complicated weapon I operated during my compulsory military service in Germany was the G3, followed by the P9 pistol. That was a bit more than 20 years ago but I think I could still do that. Though any nine-year old from Afghanistan will probably beat me at it.

The reason I have so many problems "going with the party line" here is that
a) it just fits together so nicely on the surface - too nicely for my taste
b) yet, there is this nagging "Oh, really?"-feeling, the sense that something isn't right even though you can't pin-point it directly - sort of like when you see a very professionally performed magic trick. You know it's a trick but it was performed so professionally that you can't say just how that guy managed to pull it off because the diversion was either so subtle or so overwhelming that you fell for it.

AFAIK, we don't really know to what extend "the West" is already and actually militarily engaged in Ukraine. There are rumors, accusations, rebuttals - but no facts.

We learned a lot about how close the world was to WW3 during and after 1983's "Able Archer" exercise - but only after thirty years.

OK, so much from my chair (no armchair) here...
;-)
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  #158  
Old 20.07.2014, 02:05
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

On the contrary... I think if they had the concrete evidence then they would not hesitate in producing it for all to see.

I am sorry. Maybe I am being too cynical, but that could be down to the Bush-Blair web of deceit with regards to Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.

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The US can detect missile launches of this type with high accuracy from satellite-based systems. If Obama and other US representative are already going on record stating it was a surface-to-air missile, then I'm pretty sure they had the proof already moments after it happened.

http://www.space.com/26571-military-...sile-mh17.html
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Old 20.07.2014, 02:26
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

I think the list of aircraft shot down is a bit longer than CNN state...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...OAC_Flight_777



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CNN claims that since 1973 at least five passenger planes have been shot down.
By the way, in 2001 the Ukrainian military has shot down a Russian passenger jet by mistake, killing all 78 people aboard.

.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/17/wo...own/index.html
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Old 20.07.2014, 03:15
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Re: Malaysian Airlines MH 17 has crashed over Ukraine

Not to discount Just look at the good looking women in this part of the globe
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