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View Poll Results: Would you favour Scotland opting for indepence from UK
YES........ go for it 31 50.00%
NO.......... hang on for dear life 31 50.00%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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  #301  
Old 09.09.2014, 01:13
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Why would anyone want to set up a different small country, what is the driver? And apart from the flag what would be the difference to the rest of Europe; if you visit the independent country then what would be different?
Obvious really, an independent Scoland would, like all the other small nations, have it's own voice at the table rather than letting someone in Westminster decide for them.
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  #302  
Old 09.09.2014, 02:16
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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The whole of Europe is moving to a single economic union, one currency, one set of laws, one foreign policy, a limited set of languages plus pretty well the same shops; every high street looks the same.

Why would anyone want to set up a different small country, what is the driver? And apart from the flag what would be the difference to the rest of Europe; if you visit the independent country then what would be different?
exactly, switzerland is exactly like the rest of the EU, except for the flag, of course.
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  #303  
Old 09.09.2014, 02:33
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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This entire debate is flawed......the YES quotes are ultimately arguing on the basis that "....it will all be alright in the end....." in terms of currency, defence, EU status, revenues, social security and other really BIG issues.....

If Salmon and the rest of the YES voters were really serious about creating an independent Scotland, surely by now we would be able to see a well thought through plan, with details on the above and how an independent Scotland would not only function but thrive in a way far better than it can remaining in the UK, for the benefit of its nationals. Instead what we get is a lot of over emotional and evasive political nonsense designed to do one thing....win the vote!

This is extremely dangerous as this vote will determine the future fate of Scotland and its sons and daughters, many of whom may well vote later by moving south.

We are stronger united.......keep the nationalism to the sports field and Hollywood!
I was thinking about this. Westminster has bent over backwards to clear the way for a vote on Scottish independence, but the Yes campaign haven't covered even the most basic questions.

While I can well believe that this is due to incompetence, I wonder if also it could be that the Yes campaign know that the options available would be vote losers - hence the 'get the Yes vote and we'll spring the consequences on them later' attitude.
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  #304  
Old 09.09.2014, 10:44
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Why would anyone want to set up a different small country, what is the driver? And apart from the flag what would be the difference to the rest of Europe; if you visit the independent country then what would be different?
Scotland could have its own football team for a start. I've always hated this UK football team anyway.

Oh wait.
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  #305  
Old 09.09.2014, 10:47
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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I was thinking about this. Westminster has bent over backwards to clear the way for a vote on Scottish independence, but the Yes campaign haven't covered even the most basic questions.

While I can well believe that this is due to incompetence, I wonder if also it could be that the Yes campaign know that the options available would be vote losers - hence the 'get the Yes vote and we'll spring the consequences on them later' attitude.
A lot of people are comparing Scotland's situation today to Ireland's back in the days of the Free State.

I wonder how well the Irish nationalist side explained the consequences at the time, or were even aware of the details themselves. But many people supported them nevertheless in the confidence that these problems would be solved somehow.

Even if you stay in the old country, you have no guarantee that the things you like will remain unchanged for the rest of your lifetime.
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  #306  
Old 09.09.2014, 11:15
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Actually, I'm sure the Tories secretly want Scottish independence; there's 40-odd opposition constituencies disappeared right away. Then, I believe Salmond wants to introduce PR in the Scottish parliament, paving the way for the Scottish Conservatives to have more seats in Holyrood. It's a win-win situation.
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  #307  
Old 09.09.2014, 11:24
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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You're right that the [sea] boundaries don't meet international norms, but that's because Westminister redrew them in the late 90s to be in their favour, with the support of Donald Dewar, this going to any international court will see it being restored in Scotland's favour.
Sorry, I've just realised that I never responded to this. You misunderstand the international sea boundary system ever so slightly.

The maritime border was originally drawn directly due east from the point at which the land border hits the sea so that it was easy to determine whether a ship at sea was under the jurisdiction of the English or Scots courts.

No other maritime border works like that; the international standard is that sea boundaries follow the line of land boundaries. As the Anglo-Scots border hits the sea heading NNE, the maritime border should continue on that heading, which would place around a third of the oil field under English jurisdiction.

At devolution, the border was redrawn so that it now follows international law for a while, and then heads due east, placing about a quarter of the field under English law. So the maritime border has been redrawn, as you say, but it still works in Scotland's favour compared to the international standard.
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  #308  
Old 09.09.2014, 11:27
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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The whole of Europe is moving to a single economic union, one currency, one set of laws, one foreign policy, a limited set of languages plus pretty well the same shops; every high street looks the same.
are you saying this is a good thing?
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  #309  
Old 09.09.2014, 11:46
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Obvious really, an independent Scoland would, like all the other small nations, have it's own voice at the table rather than letting someone in Westminster decide for them.
Which table exactly?
For Scotland to join the EU requires a positive vote by all members.
Certainly Spain, France and Belgium would vote against to discourage their own countrymen from splitting away.

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exactly, switzerland is exactly like the rest of the EU, except for the flag, of course.
You cannot really compare Switzerland with Scotland as Scotland has been part of the UK (and by extension the EU) for very many years while Switzerland has always been independent.

Although when I walk through one of the new Swiss shopping malls I could be anywhere in the world.

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are you saying this is a good thing?
No, I am saying it is a fact. Reality does not go away when you ignore it.
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  #310  
Old 09.09.2014, 11:54
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Actually, I'm sure the Tories secretly want Scottish independence; there's 40-odd opposition constituencies disappeared right away. Then, I believe Salmond wants to introduce PR in the Scottish parliament, paving the way for the Scottish Conservatives to have more seats in Holyrood. It's a win-win situation.

given the amount of effort the tories have but into the no campaign I'd say its not much of a secret lol
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  #311  
Old 09.09.2014, 11:57
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

@ marton, thanks. are you saying that the Scots should vote against Independence because the world is becoming uniform?
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  #312  
Old 09.09.2014, 12:03
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Actually, I'm sure the Tories secretly want Scottish independence; there's 40-odd opposition constituencies disappeared right away. Then, I believe Salmond wants to introduce PR in the Scottish parliament, paving the way for the Scottish Conservatives to have more seats in Holyrood. It's a win-win situation.
Although PR will probably lead to a greater number of parties emerging as parties will no longer be penalized for splitting. The remainer of what's left of Scotland's Tories may well see a split between the old guard neo-Thatcherites and the more progressive ones who are more similar in style to the German CDU. Would that be what Cameron really wants?

Last edited by amogles; 09.09.2014 at 12:19.
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  #313  
Old 09.09.2014, 12:15
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Actually, I'm sure the Tories secretly want Scottish independence; there's 40-odd opposition constituencies disappeared right away. Then, I believe Salmond wants to introduce PR in the Scottish parliament, paving the way for the Scottish Conservatives to have more seats in Holyrood. It's a win-win situation.
AFAIK PR is already used to an extent in the Scottish Parliament
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  #314  
Old 09.09.2014, 12:29
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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The whole of Europe is moving to a single economic union, one currency, one set of laws, one foreign policy, a limited set of languages plus pretty well the same shops; every high street looks the same.

Why would anyone want to set up a different small country, what is the driver? And apart from the flag what would be the difference to the rest of Europe; if you visit the independent country then what would be different?
Perhaps freedom from Westminster control. I think this is the only reason. Also there is an economic loss to the rest of the UK if Scotland votes yes. The pound is said to suffer with a yes vote.

If there was nothing to be gained then the pound would strengthen on a No vote.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29103445

Lets hope its a No vote Scotland should like Cameron with Europe negotiate a better deal with Westminster there is clearly something to be gained in this process with the yes vote so if rest of UK want a No vote offer more to the Jocks.

I will be changing my vote in this forum to a No if possible. Administrator of forum help me do that
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  #315  
Old 09.09.2014, 12:35
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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@ marton, thanks. are you saying that the Scots should vote against Independence because the world is becoming uniform?
No, I am saying that I do not understand what the Scots think they will gain by going against this trend.

The risks for them are they will lose free access to the EU market (e.g. Customs duties and product conformance) and become marginalised with a declining economy plus possibility of large set up costs for "Scottish only" services like NHS, Income tax, embassies in foreign countries and a foreign office, passports, etc.

The benefits for them are a good feeling they will control their own destiny (although what does this mean in reality?) plus ?
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Old 09.09.2014, 12:40
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Perhaps freedom from Westminster control. I think this is the only reason. Also there is an economic loss to the rest of the UK if Scotland votes yes. The pound is said to suffer with a yes vote.

If there was nothing to be gained then the pound would strengthen on a No vote.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29103445

Lets hope its a No vote Scotland should like Cameron with Europe negotiate a better deal with Westminster there is clearly something to be gained in this process with the yes vote so if rest of UK want a No vote offer more to the Jocks.

I will be changing my vote in this forum to a No if possible. Administrator of forum help me do that
About "Perhaps freedom from Westminster control." Certainly a popular rallying cry! But in reality most control comes from Brussels these days; how many new laws in the past few years were "UK only" and how many from EU?

About "Also there is an economic loss to the rest of the UK if Scotland votes yes. The pound is said to suffer with a yes vote." Looks to be the case, but I do not know how a relatively small country like Scotland with practically no foreign reserves could have their own currency and withstand currency speculators?
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  #317  
Old 09.09.2014, 12:43
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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AFAIK PR is already used to an extent in the Scottish Parliament
You're right; a sort of PR is used in Holyrood, and the Consrvatives do have a handful of seats, compared to the single Scottish seat they hold in Westminster.
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  #318  
Old 09.09.2014, 12:46
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

The population of Scotland is only 5 million. They should use the oil for reserves
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  #319  
Old 09.09.2014, 12:49
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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About "Perhaps freedom from Westminster control." Certainly a popular rallying cry! But in reality most control comes from Brussels these days; how many new laws in the past few years were "UK only" and how many from EU?

About "Also there is an economic loss to the rest of the UK if Scotland votes yes. The pound is said to suffer with a yes vote." Looks to be the case, but I do not know how a relatively small country like Scotland with practically no foreign reserves could have their own currency and withstand currency speculators?
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-...itics-29113547 the no vote is really desperate just how much is there to loose for the rest of the UK other than stability of the pound ?
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Old 09.09.2014, 12:49
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the SNP stated it is aiming for a 100% renewable energy policy? Yet they are counting on the proceeds of oil and natural gas as a source of income. Hypocritical, much?
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