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View Poll Results: Would you favour Scotland opting for indepence from UK
YES........ go for it 31 50.00%
NO.......... hang on for dear life 31 50.00%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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  #341  
Old 09.09.2014, 15:31
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Except that green source energy is always more expensive than traditional so who would buy it? Unless it was sold at a loss?
That partly depends on how you account for the subsidies. Economies of scale and improved technologies are narrowing the gap, as is the rising cost of extracting harder-to-reach fossil fuel deposits.

Don't forget that Scotland already has a well-developed hydro sector, so it's not entirely reliant on emerging green technologies.
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  #342  
Old 09.09.2014, 15:32
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Except that green source energy is always more expensive than traditional so who would buy it? Unless it was sold at a loss?
Because of the up-front investment cost.

Nobody can seriously think energy costs will stay the same or only rise at the rate of inflation for the next 20 or 30 years. As oil and gas reserves decrease, energy costs will rocket and the wise investor who prepared for this with a renewables structure in place will reap the benefits.

What looks expensive now, may well turn out to be a bargain, 20 years down the line. I'm not sure I would want to be relying on Russia or the Middle East for my energy needs in the medium term, would you?
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  #343  
Old 09.09.2014, 16:02
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make with the EU/Westminster thing. Scotland are currently in the EU. In the unlikely event that they're allowed to stay in the EU, they'll have a slightly enhanced position. Ordinary people won't see much difference on the ground as a result of continued EU membership.

What they will see is a government that they voted for, rather than one they had minority say in, and it will be more accountable to the people of Scotland. As I said up thread, I don't think that will actually deliver the utopia that some in the Yes camp are predicting, but it will at least be the government they voted for, rather than the government that England voted for.

There are, in my opinion, an awful lot of downsides to independence, and it's not the option I'd choose if I had a vote, but I can see the appeal. I fully expect that a Yes vote will spark calls for more regional government in England too, as the less-populous and less-prosperous regions are sick of being dominated by the South East.
About " In the unlikely event that they're allowed to stay in the EU, they'll have a slightly enhanced position. " I think they would have a worse position!

About "What they will see is a government that they voted for, rather than one they had minority say in" I am not sure what your point is? In every democracy there is a majority and a minority. I doubt the SNP will get a 100% vote in the next election so there will still be a lot of people saying "this is not the government they voted for"
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  #344  
Old 09.09.2014, 16:14
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Because of the up-front investment cost.

Nobody can seriously think energy costs will stay the same or only rise at the rate of inflation for the next 20 or 30 years. As oil and gas reserves decrease, energy costs will rocket and the wise investor who prepared for this with a renewables structure in place will reap the benefits.

What looks expensive now, may well turn out to be a bargain, 20 years down the line. I'm not sure I would want to be relying on Russia or the Middle East for my energy needs in the medium term, would you?
About "As oil and gas reserves decrease, energy costs will rocket " The wise investor will be building nuclear power stations - always 100% available - also on cold, dark and windless nights.

In Germany which went into green energy in a big way, many companies are paying double for their power versus their US rivals and are threatening to move production elsewhere.

About "Because of the up-front investment cost." certainly a major factor but you also have the costs to keep traditional power stations running for back up for those cold, dark and windless nights.
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  #345  
Old 09.09.2014, 16:35
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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About "As oil and gas reserves decrease, energy costs will rocket " The wise investor will be building nuclear power stations - always 100% available - also on cold, dark and windless nights.

In Germany which went into green energy in a big way, many companies are paying double for their power versus their US rivals and are threatening to move production elsewhere.

About "Because of the up-front investment cost." certainly a major factor but you also have the costs to keep traditional power stations running for back up for those cold, dark and windless nights.
Of course, CURRENTLY renewables cannot provide 100% of the energy, 100% of the time. It is truly a rare day when certain areas of Scotland are windless or tideless though. Perhaps part of the investment along these lines might be energy storage for such times, an as yet nascent industry. Maybe we'd have an agreement with country x to "export" our surplus energy to their grid and in return we'd take electricity from theirs in our non-windy/wavy times. Something to look to in the future.

We do already have a number of nuclear plants in Scotland, and although popular opinion favours other sources, practicality may mean keeping a few on.
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  #346  
Old 09.09.2014, 16:36
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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About " In the unlikely event that they're allowed to stay in the EU, they'll have a slightly enhanced position. " I think they would have a worse position!

About "What they will see is a government that they voted for, rather than one they had minority say in" I am not sure what your point is? In every democracy there is a majority and a minority. I doubt the SNP will get a 100% vote in the next election so there will still be a lot of people saying "this is not the government they voted for"
It will be the government Scotland voted for, however, which is the point.
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  #347  
Old 09.09.2014, 16:45
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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About " In the unlikely event that they're allowed to stay in the EU, they'll have a slightly enhanced position. " I think they would have a worse position!

About "What they will see is a government that they voted for, rather than one they had minority say in" I am not sure what your point is? In every democracy there is a majority and a minority. I doubt the SNP will get a 100% vote in the next election so there will still be a lot of people saying "this is not the government they voted for"
IF (and it's a big if) they stay in the EU, they'll have a commissioner along with the MEPs they already have.

I understand perfectly what you're saying about every democracy having a majority and a minority. However, I can understand Scots frustration at always seeming to be in the minority. The government that a majority of Scots vote for could be quite different to the government a majority of English vote for, and the English drown out the Scots by sheer weight of numbers.

While an independent Scotland will still have political minorities, each individual vote will carry more weight because (a) a much smaller electorate means each voter is a bigger proportion of the electorate and (b) PR is more representative than FPTP. Hence a Scottish government, broadly speaking, reflects the votes of the Scottish people, whereas the UK parliament tends to reflect the votes of the English.

It's all down to the numbers. Do you want to be a big fish in a small pond, or a small fish in a big one?
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  #348  
Old 09.09.2014, 17:06
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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IF (and it's a big if) they stay in the EU, they'll have a commissioner along with the MEPs they already have.

I understand perfectly what you're saying about every democracy having a majority and a minority. However, I can understand Scots frustration at always seeming to be in the minority. The government that a majority of Scots vote for could be quite different to the government a majority of English vote for, and the English drown out the Scots by sheer weight of numbers.

While an independent Scotland will still have political minorities, each individual vote will carry more weight because (a) a much smaller electorate means each voter is a bigger proportion of the electorate and (b) PR is more representative than FPTP. Hence a Scottish government, broadly speaking, reflects the votes of the Scottish people, whereas the UK parliament tends to reflect the votes of the English.

It's all down to the numbers. Do you want to be a big fish in a small pond, or a small fish in a big one?
About "IF (and it's a big if) they stay in the EU, they'll have a commissioner along with the MEPs they already have. "

and about "Do you want to be a big fish in a small pond, or a small fish in a big one?"

So (best case) the Scots are choosing to be a small fish in the big EU pond. Or (worst case) they are choosing to be the only fish in a small pond?

About "each individual vote will carry more weight" but the minority still loses.
And those minorities in Scotland who voted Tory or Labour in the past and felt they were represented in Westminster when one of those parties was the Govt. will now be frustrated by always being in the minority?
Unless, of course, in the unlikely case that the SNP makes a complete mess of managing independence and another party gets in.
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  #349  
Old 09.09.2014, 17:07
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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It will be the government more than 50% of the electorate in Scotland voted for, however, which is the point.
Fixed that for you
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  #350  
Old 09.09.2014, 17:13
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Of course, CURRENTLY renewables cannot provide 100% of the energy, 100% of the time. It is truly a rare day when certain areas of Scotland are windless or tideless though. Perhaps part of the investment along these lines might be energy storage for such times, an as yet nascent industry. Maybe we'd have an agreement with country x to "export" our surplus energy to their grid and in return we'd take electricity from theirs in our non-windy/wavy times. Something to look to in the future.

We do already have a number of nuclear plants in Scotland, and although popular opinion favours other sources, practicality may mean keeping a few on.
About "Maybe we'd have an agreement with country x to "export" our surplus energy to their grid and in return....." Sounds as substantial as most of the SNP plans

Actually I like the idea of tidal energy but it is usually only available 10 hours per day. I know Scotland is a leader in this technology.

About "Perhaps part of the investment along these lines might be energy storage for such times" Yes, pity that this industry is still a long way from offering good solutions.
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  #351  
Old 09.09.2014, 17:29
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Except that green source energy is always more expensive than traditional so who would buy it? Unless it was sold at a loss?
Germany has managed to create a scenario where it pumps massive subsidies into its electrical generation sector (and hence it is operating at a massive loss) and yet the prices are still very high. So selling at a loss and having low prices are not necessarily one and the same thing.
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  #352  
Old 09.09.2014, 17:38
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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About "IF (and it's a big if) they stay in the EU, they'll have a commissioner along with the MEPs they already have. "

and about "Do you want to be a big fish in a small pond, or a small fish in a big one?"

So (best case) the Scots are choosing to be a small fish in the big EU pond. Or (worst case) they are choosing to be the only fish in a small pond?

About "each individual vote will carry more weight" but the minority still loses.
And those minorities in Scotland who voted Tory or Labour in the past and felt they were represented in Westminster when one of those parties was the Govt. will now be frustrated by always being in the minority?
Unless, of course, in the unlikely case that the SNP makes a complete mess of managing independence and another party gets in.
The Scots want their own government to set domestic policy, and to have a seat at the EU table for European policy. I don't think those aspirations are incompatible. I do think they'll be disappointed in their desire to remain in the EU, but that's a different question.

On national elections, yes, the "minority still loses", but Scotland has PR so even minority parties can get into parliament, and the majority party usually has to consider coalition and consensus-building to pass legislation.

The UK system of First Past The Post means that only votes in marginal seats really matter - any Tory voter living in a safe Labour seat is entirely disenfranchised - and it usually delivers something close to a one-party elected dictatorship for five years.
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  #353  
Old 09.09.2014, 17:56
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the SNP stated it is aiming for a 100% renewable energy policy? Yet they are counting on the proceeds of oil and natural gas as a source of income. Hypocritical, much?
You just said it yourself...aiming.....not starting at that position
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  #354  
Old 09.09.2014, 18:39
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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It will be the government more than 50% of the electorate in Scotland voted for, however, which is the point.
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Fixed that for you
No, you really didn't!

I hope I don't need to explain why that is wrong on two levels!
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  #355  
Old 09.09.2014, 20:35
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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No, you really didn't!

I hope I don't need to explain why that is wrong on two levels!
Yeah I thought that too
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  #356  
Old 09.09.2014, 21:07
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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The No campaign is suffering from some very unattractive desperation at the moment.

I'm still confident No will triumph.
Please define triumph.
At least 55% no?
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  #357  
Old 09.09.2014, 21:31
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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No, you really didn't!

I hope I don't need to explain why that is wrong on two levels!
You think it will be a minority Govt. ?
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  #358  
Old 09.09.2014, 21:32
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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please define triumph.
At least 55% no?
50.01% ??
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  #359  
Old 09.09.2014, 22:22
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make with the EU/Westminster thing. Scotland are currently in the EU. In the unlikely event that they're allowed to stay in the EU, they'll have a slightly enhanced position. Ordinary people won't see much difference on the ground as a result of continued EU membership.

What they will see is a government that they voted for, rather than one they had minority say in, and it will be more accountable to the people of Scotland. As I said up thread, I don't think that will actually deliver the utopia that some in the Yes camp are predicting, but it will at least be the government they voted for, rather than the government that England voted for.

There are, in my opinion, an awful lot of downsides to independence, and it's not the option I'd choose if I had a vote, but I can see the appeal. I fully expect that a Yes vote will spark calls for more regional government in England too, as the less-populous and less-prosperous regions are sick of being dominated by the South East.
About "I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make with the EU/Westminster thing. "

The point is that the Scots want to escape supervision by Westminster while they are living in the past; they really should be worried about the EU tsunami comimg down the track.

BTW the new EU executive is rumoured to be excessively strong on budget control; look here!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ecutive-europe
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  #360  
Old 09.09.2014, 22:34
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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You think it will be a minority Govt. ?
Most UK governments are formed on around 35% of the vote. The Labour "landslide" in 1997 was achieved with 43% of the popular vote. You just need to get more seats than the other parties to win.
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