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View Poll Results: Would you favour Scotland opting for indepence from UK
YES........ go for it 31 50.00%
NO.......... hang on for dear life 31 50.00%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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  #441  
Old 14.09.2014, 21:43
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Of course, who else spouts venom every minute and day against London and England?

Have you read any comments under the articles in all the newspapers?

Literally thousands of posts where Englishmen really hope Scotland 'pisses off' as they can't stand the accusations any more. Some also said they will sabotage Scottish products from now on, no matter the outcome.

Even within the country, there are many people who are afraid to put a No sticker to the car/house window in fear of a brick flying in. I was personally appalled yesterday from a taxi driver who campaigned for Yes as soon as I entered the cab. When I asked him if he trusts Salmond he said 'Hell NO' and then I asked him how will you let someone you dont trust decide your country's future in the negotiations? He gave me a shitty answer that Salmond won't be there forever and that they can vote him out if they want.

The fact that negotiations would happen only once and under Salmond seemed to elude him.

Also, have you read their 'day of reckoning' speech by Sillars? How does that sound for a new country? Alienating the majority of companies in Scotland, forcing them to send their HQ and workforce south even before the last vote is counted.

Edit: Just an example is here http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/...ard-2014_09_13

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...t-deepest.html
You really argue like a Greek, I give you that.

I understand that everybody who loves Britain or the UK, must really be as livid as you are.
I can't argue with anything you're saying because it's absolutely true.
But these arguments mean nothing to people who don't care about Britain or who care about Britain but they care even more about petty matters such as social security, support for the poor, equal opportunities for education etc.

You make a really good point about breaking appart the country etc. But let's not forget that there's no law banning people from hating their own country (and in the special case of the UK it's not really clear if your country is the UK or England, Wales, Scotland or NI; my understanding is that everybody can decide for themselves if they are English more than British, or British more than Scottish, or if they only feel only one of these as their country).


I think the UK has done a terrible job and as soon as Scotland votes no (which I think will be the case because most people who haven't made up their mind will vote no at the end) the governments have to get together and create a proper federation, in which the competencies of each federal state are defined and the same for all of them and in which the federal governmet has its own specific competencies and is not the same as the government of England.
Furthermore, England should not be one feferal state but split into at least 4 or 5. Why I say this? Becase this is how Switzerland has managed to keep all ethnicities happy. Zurich is too busy competing with Bern, Basel is too busy competing with Zurich, Geneva is too busy competing with Lausanne and Ticino is too busy trying to remind everybody they are not Italians. And a few cantons are bilingual. The opposite example is Belgium where the two main federal parts are split on the basis of ethnicity.

So let the Scottish have as much control over Scotland as Bern has over Bern, Vaud over Vaud and Zug over Zug.
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  #442  
Old 14.09.2014, 22:18
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Of course, who else spouts venom every minute and day against London and England?

Have you read any comments under the articles in all the newspapers?

Literally thousands of posts where Englishmen really hope Scotland 'pisses off' as they can't stand the accusations any more. Some also said they will sabotage Scottish products from now on, no matter the outcome.

Even within the country, there are many people who are afraid to put a No sticker to the car/house window in fear of a brick flying in. I was personally appalled yesterday from a taxi driver who campaigned for Yes as soon as I entered the cab. When I asked him if he trusts Salmond he said 'Hell NO' and then I asked him how will you let someone you dont trust decide your country's future in the negotiations? He gave me a shitty answer that Salmond won't be there forever and that they can vote him out if they want.

The fact that negotiations would happen only once and under Salmond seemed to elude him.

Also, have you read their 'day of reckoning' speech by Sillars? How does that sound for a new country? Alienating the majority of companies in Scotland, forcing them to send their HQ and workforce south even before the last vote is counted.

Edit: Just an example is here http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/...ard-2014_09_13

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...t-deepest.html
Thanks for posting two links where you need to be a subscriber to read them
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  #443  
Old 14.09.2014, 22:21
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

And now the Welsh are at it - divided we just won't rule, that is for sure.
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  #444  
Old 14.09.2014, 22:26
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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You really argue like a Greek, I give you that.
..........................

I think the UK has done a terrible job and as soon as Scotland votes no (which I think will be the case because most people who haven't made up their mind will vote no at the end) the governments have to get together and create a proper federation, in which the competencies of each federal state are defined and the same for all of them and in which the federal governmet has its own specific competencies and is not the same as the government of England.
Furthermore, England should not be one feferal state but split into at least 4 or 5. Why I say this? Becase this is how Switzerland has managed to keep all ethnicities happy. Zurich is too busy competing with Bern, Basel is too busy competing with Zurich, Geneva is too busy competing with Lausanne and Ticino is too busy trying to remind everybody they are not Italians. And a few cantons are bilingual. The opposite example is Belgium where the two main federal parts are split on the basis of ethnicity.

So let the Scottish have as much control over Scotland as Bern has over Bern, Vaud over Vaud and Zug over Zug.
I guess I'm heated up from discussions over the last few days, hard to stay calm when the whole country here is boiling

I couldn't agree more with your suggestions above though! Devo max, make Scots responsible for their spending and see if they ever say again that London is at fault. If they vote no they get income tax powers and ability to borrow from the markets. I'm very interested to see how much open markets would lend scotland and at which rate? When they see a double digit rate it might bring some sense into their thick heads about how 'strong' a small country really is against Wall Street vultures.

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Thanks for posting two links where you need to be a subscriber to read them
I can see the second one without subscription (Telegraph), didn't notice the first one but I think you can get the context from the first 3 free paragraphs. I'm sure a quick google search would bring you back a dozen results, more than enough to prove a point and not stick to specifics.
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  #445  
Old 14.09.2014, 22:39
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

delete please
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  #446  
Old 14.09.2014, 22:43
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

DimitriosG I think somebody should tell those people at the Borders (from your links) how Swiss residents go into France every day to buy stuff and French-residents come here to work.
I woudn't worry that Scottish independence would disrupt my everyday life in this sense.

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I couldn't agree more with your suggestions above though! Devo max, make Scots responsible for their spending and see if they ever say again that London is at fault. If they vote no they get income tax powers and ability to borrow from the markets. I'm very interested to see how much open markets would lend scotland and at which rate? When they see a double digit rate it might bring some sense into their thick heads about how 'strong' a small country really is against Wall Street vultures.
Devo max but not only for Scotland.
A proper federation is my suggestion. I am not sure if you agree with this, because my understanding is that the English are ready to give Scotland more devolved powers but they still want to keep Westminster as the parliament of the UK and of England in particular.
As long as this is the case people will feel that England is effectively ruling them, or at least this is what the nationalists will say.
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  #447  
Old 14.09.2014, 23:47
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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All successful referendums have 90%+ support, they want to break the Union with 50% +1 vote if possible.
I can ever recall any referendum anywhere, that 90% of the voting public vote the one way!

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I wonder how that idiot Cameron allowed something like that in the first place. So they'll enforce something on half the population against their will and that's democracy?
So you'd say it would be more democratic if he denied them a referendum

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In most countries changing the constitution needs 2/3s but breaking up a country doesn't. That's truly insane.
Well you are right that all the citizens get to vote on a constitutional change but it usually does not require a ⅔ majority. In UK, the constitution is whatever the prime minister says it is! Which is why he gets to decide if Scotland gets a referendum and even if there will be an EU referendum....
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  #448  
Old 14.09.2014, 23:51
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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I'm very interested to see how much open markets would lend scotland and at which rate?
Well if a bailed out economy like Ireland are auctioning at these rates, then one would expect that Scotland could do much better.
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  #449  
Old 16.09.2014, 00:19
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

And the bitterness continues, so much poison between the 2 people now:

Independent Scotland should not use pound, say 63% of English and Welsh

Guardian/ICM poll finds popular support for Westminster parties' refusal to allow currency union in event of yes vote

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...h-welsh-voters

If Scotland breaks away, the party who won't push back to cut their throats in negotiations will lose the elections. The English will want revenge, Scotland is f***d.
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  #450  
Old 16.09.2014, 00:32
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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And the bitterness continues, so much poison between the 2 people now:

Independent Scotland should not use pound, say 63% of English and Welsh

Guardian/ICM poll finds popular support for Westminster parties' refusal to allow currency union in event of yes vote

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...h-welsh-voters

If Scotland breaks away, the party who won't push back to cut their throats in negotiations will lose the elections. The English will want revenge, Scotland is f***d.
Why do you see this as "bitterness "? Many people think that a currency union would weaken the pound; which actually might be a good thing in terms of exports.
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  #451  
Old 16.09.2014, 04:12
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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DimitriosG I think somebody should tell those people at the Borders (from your links) how Swiss residents go into France every day to buy stuff and French-residents come here to work.
I woudn't worry that Scottish independence would disrupt my everyday life in this sense.


Devo max but not only for Scotland.
A proper federation is my suggestion. I am not sure if you agree with this, because my understanding is that the English are ready to give Scotland more devolved powers but they still want to keep Westminster as the parliament of the UK and of England in particular.
As long as this is the case people will feel that England is effectively ruling them, or at least this is what the nationalists will say.

Devolution just for Scotland would be useless. It only makes sense if also counties or regions of England get some autonomy in the frame of a federal structure
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  #452  
Old 16.09.2014, 04:19
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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And the bitterness continues, so much poison between the 2 people now:

Independent Scotland should not use pound, say 63% of English and Welsh

Guardian/ICM poll finds popular support for Westminster parties' refusal to allow currency union in event of yes vote

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...h-welsh-voters

If Scotland breaks away, the party who won't push back to cut their throats in negotiations will lose the elections. The English will want revenge, Scotland is f***d.

Sure, Scotland should change over to the Norwegian Crones or to the Swiss Franc. In view of the relative weakness of Scotland, the SNB might that way save some 2 BNs CHF per year
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Old 16.09.2014, 09:56
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Speaking of devolution and federalism for the UK, Daniel Hannan has a pretty clear opinion on it. (Apologies if the article is behind a sub, I'll C&P it if necessary).

Man, this guy is good; I wish he was a proper MP rather than wasting his talents in Brussels
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  #454  
Old 16.09.2014, 10:14
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Sure, Scotland should change over to the Norwegian Crones or to the Swiss Franc. In view of the relative weakness of Scotland, the SNB might that way save some 2 BNs CHF per year
Good point.
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  #455  
Old 16.09.2014, 10:23
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Who do you want calling the shots for you? Someone in your own country or someone in England?

The answer seems logical to me. Just choose the option that suits you, or your fellow countrymen and women.

Nothing like a democratic comment to muddy the waters.
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  #456  
Old 16.09.2014, 10:44
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Seriousely there are two factors here and they both are directly related to another two realities.

De-centralization or Centralization.

AND

Economic protection and Physical protection (defence).

De-centralization (relatively speaking) works well for SUI as does defence. We are here in the middle of fortress Euurope so the Swiss system of governing and defence is fine. It works. We have a 9 to 5 air force you know.

Therefore the question that should be asked is does Scotland need England to defend it both physically and economically?

Things to think about are in no particular order....

RAF & English ground forces. Does Scotland have enough to defend itself?

GCHQ for economic and physical protection (can of worms subject but has to be included)

British parliment. What is the track record of British politicians defending Scottish interests?

Education for your kids (English universities)

I am neither English not Scottish so I have to stop here. And I wont vote for the same reason.
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  #457  
Old 16.09.2014, 10:48
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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British parliment. What is the track record of British politicians defending Scottish interests?

... and what is the track record of British politicians defending English and Welsh interests?

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Education for your kids (English universities)

English universities which charge tuition fees voted for by Scottish MPs?
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  #458  
Old 16.09.2014, 11:06
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

I don't think it's "bitterness" that is causing the rest of the UK to refuse a currency union with an independent Scotland. The British are notoriously unwilling to let foreigners have any say in their monetary policy. The Euro was rejected because we didn't want a currency run from Brussels - even though we have a voice in Brussels. There is simply no way that the electorate would stand for an independent foreign state having a say in how the GBP is run.

That's not "punishing" Scotland. It's a perfectly reasonable desire to defend domestic interests.
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  #459  
Old 16.09.2014, 11:17
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Scottish independence: Bored teenagers at BBC's Big Big Debate take to Twitter mostly to complain - or look for boyfriends
“Am gettin bored, n a want ma bed when does this finish”



15:20 Patrick Harvie (Greens) tells audience to reject George Galloway's arguments as he can't distinguish between rape and bad sexual etiquette
53:25 George Galloway heckled for recalling British united stance against fascism in WWII.

Last edited by Reb77Br; 16.09.2014 at 11:32.
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  #460  
Old 16.09.2014, 11:21
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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53:25 George Galloway heckled for [snip]

... being an obnoxious dickhead who wears a hat indoors.
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