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View Poll Results: Would you favour Scotland opting for indepence from UK
YES........ go for it 31 50.00%
NO.......... hang on for dear life 31 50.00%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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  #161  
Old 26.08.2014, 16:31
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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pity, the debate is getting nastier on here.
I agree, the blatant lies of the No side are quite galling aren't they?

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Linking everyone who supports UK with Scotland in it with the EDL, UKIP etc is not only wrong but rather unpleasant
Did I say that? What I said was they are part of the same campaign. Funny how you don't have any problem with people insinuating the Yes campaign are English-hating idiots, but when I point out that actually all the unsavoury people involved in the debate are all on the No side, it's unpleasant. Hmm.

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If the Scots vote Yes, then so be it, good for them and I wish them all the best but I think the UK with Scotland in it is better for all.

I think Scotland can succeed as an independent nation, no doubt about it once they get rid of Salmond and his gang but it may take a few years.
A perfectly reasonable position, if only some of your No friends would stick to the reasonable stuff and avoid the blatant lies and scaremongering the debate would be in a much nicer place.
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  #162  
Old 26.08.2014, 16:34
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Sterling () job Neil....single handedly staving off the purveyors of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt)....

..and boy do we have more than our fair share in this thread!
Don't you think the business owner has a right to be fearful for his and his employee's welfare? These were genuine concerns, not some proaganda driven bullshit.
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  #163  
Old 26.08.2014, 16:41
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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IFunny how you don't have any problem with people insinuating the Yes campaign are English-hating idiots, but when I point out that actually all the unsavoury people involved in the debate are all on the No side, it's unpleasant. Hmm.
So all Yes-campaigners love the English, but prefer to be independant of the UK? I bet there's a significant number of people will vote Yes simply because they hate the English, and if you deny that, you're more obtuse than I thought. I've read some pretty nasty anti-English drivel on several websites. It's the good old ABE* brigade again. I've also read a fair few comments along the lines of "let them go, we don't need the scrounging Jocks anyway". Neither position is particularly tasteful, oder?


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  #164  
Old 26.08.2014, 16:44
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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pity, the debate is getting nastier on here.

Linking everyone who supports UK with Scotland in it with the EDL, UKIP etc is not only wrong but rather unpleasant

If the Scots vote Yes, then so be it, good for them and I wish them all the best but I think the UK with Scotland in it is better for all.

I think Scotland can succeed as an independent nation, no doubt about it once they get rid of Salmond and his gang but it may take a few years.
That may happen naturally.

What would the SNP do once Scotland became independent? Probaly break into factions and then fade to insignificance. The problem with many of these single issue parties is they get into a bit of an identity crisis once their stated object is acheived.

The best survival strategy for the SNP would be to feign to supprt independence but to secretly sabotage it.
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  #165  
Old 26.08.2014, 16:44
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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I agree, the blatant lies of the No side are quite galling aren't they?

Did I say that? What I said was they are part of the same campaign. Funny how you don't have any problem with people insinuating the Yes campaign are English-hating idiots, but when I point out that actually all the unsavoury people involved in the debate are all on the No side, it's unpleasant. Hmm.

A perfectly reasonable position, if only some of your No friends would stick to the reasonable stuff and avoid the blatant lies and scaremongering the debate would be in a much nicer place.
I don't think the lies are exclusive to the No side nor is anyone saying that all the Yes voters are English hating idiots.
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  #166  
Old 26.08.2014, 16:47
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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So all Yes-campaigners love the English, but prefer to be independant of the UK? I bet there's a significant number of people will vote Yes simply because they hate the English, and if you deny that, you're more obtuse than I thought. I've read some pretty nasty anti-English drivel on several websites. It's the good old ABE* brigade again. I've also read a fair few comments along the lines of "let them go, we don't need the scrounging Jocks anyway". Neither position is particularly tasteful, oder?


*Anyone But England
Didn't Ireland go through that post independence too?

Most Irish didn't even go through the motions of pretending to like England.

But it's still not in any way accurate to say the Irish didn't really want independence but just acted out of anti-English sentiment.
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  #167  
Old 26.08.2014, 16:48
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Don't you think the business owner has a right to be fearful for his and his employee's welfare? These were genuine concerns, not some proaganda driven bullshit.
Yes he has an absolute right to be concerned about his business, especially given the potential political turmoil a Yes vote could bring, at least in the short term, but is he really concerned about his employees if he's thinking about closing down and moving to another country? Is he just assuming they'll all go with him then or what? Has he discussed it with any of them?

The way I look at it is this - the eyes of the world will be on Scotland on September 18th, and if we vote No, they'll all stick around for a day or two to pick up some reaction then feck off home, never to be seen again, but if we vote Yes, the eyes of the world will remain upon us through to actual independence and beyond, it'll be the best free advertising a country could ever hope for. So your mate's definitely entitled to be apprehensive, people don't like change, and if he wants to move south then good luck to him, but there are more important things at hand than one anecdotal small businessman.
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  #168  
Old 26.08.2014, 17:01
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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So all Yes-campaigners love the English, but prefer to be independant of the UK? I bet there's a significant number of people will vote Yes simply because they hate the English, and if you deny that, you're more obtuse than I thought. I've read some pretty nasty anti-English drivel on several websites. It's the good old ABE* brigade again. I've also read a fair few comments along the lines of "let them go, we don't need the scrounging Jocks anyway". Neither position is particularly tasteful, oder?


*Anyone But England
Oh you bet do you? Again with the anecdotes too. I've no doubt there are a few English haters on the Yes side, but that's not the point of independence as many people, including you seem to assume, it's about democracy and self-determination. There are also many English haters on the No side, small-minded, little Scotlanders who are most definitely in your ABE camp, but terrified of what might happen if we actually do go for independence, I know a couple personally.

Again the point of the SNP's success is that they persuaded Scotland they were no longer the small minded little Scotlanders of yore, they are a forward looking, inclusive, socially democratic and skilled political movement, and right now are clearly the natural party of government in Scotland. This says as much about the failures of the Labour party as it does about the success of the SNP though, the two are definitely linked.

And yes, neither position is tasteful.
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  #169  
Old 26.08.2014, 17:03
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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So all Yes-campaigners love the English, but prefer to be independant of the UK? I bet there's a significant number of people will vote Yes simply because they hate the English, and if you deny that, you're more obtuse than I thought. I've read some pretty nasty anti-English drivel on several websites. It's the good old ABE* brigade again. I've also read a fair few comments along the lines of "let them go, we don't need the scrounging Jocks anyway". Neither position is particularly tasteful, oder?

*Anyone But England
Patricio, how many times me old mucker!

Some ≠ All!
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  #170  
Old 26.08.2014, 17:07
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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That may happen naturally.

What would the SNP do once Scotland became independent? Probaly break into factions and then fade to insignificance. The problem with many of these single issue parties is they get into a bit of an identity crisis once their stated object is acheived.

The best survival strategy for the SNP would be to feign to supprt independence but to secretly sabotage it.
Again this is to misunderstand Scottish politics, the SNP have proven themselves to be more than competent at governing Scotland, and they are far more than a single issue party, they have been for some time. As I said above, they have replaced the Labour party as the natural party of government in Scotland and are probably closer to a European style social democrat, centre left than anything else in British politics.

Now would they lose their raison d'etre if independence is achieved? Perhaps, but what is more likely is that some of the more right wing members break away and form a more centre right/Christian Democrat style party, and what's left absorbs what little talent is left in Scottish Labour, so they'll probably form the basis of the future left and right.

Incidentally, given all the talk of a dead tory vote in Scotland, if I was a tory voter I'd be all for independence, because a real Scottish pro-business, centre right, conservative party would do well in Scotland once they lose the association with Cameron's tories. For all its left leaning view of itself, Scotland is still a relatively conservative (small c) country and there are plenty of people who would vote for them, just not now.
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  #171  
Old 26.08.2014, 17:10
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Patricio, how many times me old mucker!

Some ≠ All!
Exactly. Not all Yes-voters are forward-thinking Social democrats. the point I am trying to make is that nasty, bigoted nationalism is not exclusive to the No campaign.
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  #172  
Old 26.08.2014, 17:13
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

Neil, I did watch the complete debate, plus parts which were broadcast today.

All Salmonds plan 'B' s began with, "We will keep Stirling for the time being....", and then why can't we use other people's currency. He never mentioned the Euro at all, probably as they have already told him to F* Off. He suggested a new Scottish pound, or using other currencies, as HK uses the US$ .

I did reply to your accusation of lying, I wrote about "8 countries in Europe are watching Scotland" plus the link. You ignore this as I caught you out.

You choose to ignore my facts and the links to prove the truth, and continue to waffle on like a typical Yes voter, and continue to say I am lying.

We have not heard one quote from you and your cronies, only your spoken opinions, which I believe are somewhat unfounded and unbelievable.

Good bye Neil, you are now on my ignore list, I don't like your type!

Last edited by Sbrinz; 27.08.2014 at 01:44. Reason: Scottish pound was suggested
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  #173  
Old 26.08.2014, 17:41
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

This entire debate is flawed......the YES quotes are ultimately arguing on the basis that "....it will all be alright in the end....." in terms of currency, defence, EU status, revenues, social security and other really BIG issues.....

If Salmon and the rest of the YES voters were really serious about creating an independent Scotland, surely by now we would be able to see a well thought through plan, with details on the above and how an independent Scotland would not only function but thrive in a way far better than it can remaining in the UK, for the benefit of its nationals. Instead what we get is a lot of over emotional and evasive political nonsense designed to do one thing....win the vote!

This is extremely dangerous as this vote will determine the future fate of Scotland and its sons and daughters, many of whom may well vote later by moving south.

We are stronger united.......keep the nationalism to the sports field and Hollywood!
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  #174  
Old 26.08.2014, 17:48
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Neil, I did watch the complete debate, plus parts which were broadcast today.

All Salmonds plan 'B' s began with, "We will keep Stirling for the time being....", and then why can't we use other people's currency. He never mentioned the Euro at all, probably as they have already told him to F* Off. He never mentioned a new Scottish pound.

I did reply to your accusation of lying, I wrote about "8 countries in Europe are watching Scotland" plus the link. You ignore this as I caught you out.

You choose to ignore my facts and the links to prove the truth, and continue to waffle on like a typical Yes voter, and continue to say I am lying.

We have not heard one quote from you and your cronies, only your spoken opinions, which I believe are somewhat unfounded and unbelievable.

Good bye Neil, you are now on my ignore list, I don't like your type!
That would be the type which questions you on your lies then? Fair enough. Just in case you can't resist, as I already posted yesterday, you didn't present me with a list of 8 countries who are "watching" (presumably everyone is watching the situation?), you provided a list of three countries (France, Spain and Italy) with internal disputes, only one of which is relevant - Spain, and two other countries with a potential dispute over land (Hungary and Romania), neither of which is relevant.
But your original claim was that "most countries have stated" that they'd block Scotland from the EU. This is a bare-faced lie, and you well know it. To provide an article of countries potentially "interested" in and "monitoring" the situation doesn't even go close to backing up your original claim, and the one country which actually might conceivably attempt to block Scotland, again this is Spain, has made no statement of the sort.
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  #175  
Old 26.08.2014, 17:54
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Exactly. Not all Yes-voters are forward-thinking Social democrats. the point I am trying to make is that nasty, bigoted nationalism is not exclusive to the No campaign.
Quite, association to a group is in no way relevant.

I'm sure dear old Jimmy Savile would have had an opinion and picked a side. Despite what a $hit he was, it would not have made the side he picked's arguments any less valid.

Some bad people do some good things and vice-versa, so shouting about who might or might not support your/the other cause is an appaling argument to make.
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  #176  
Old 26.08.2014, 18:34
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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This entire debate is flawed......the YES quotes are ultimately arguing on the basis that "....it will all be alright in the end....." in terms of currency, defence, EU status, revenues, social security and other really BIG issues.....

If Salmon and the rest of the YES voters were really serious about creating an independent Scotland, surely by now we would be able to see a well thought through plan, with details on the above and how an independent Scotland would not only function but thrive in a way far better than it can remaining in the UK, for the benefit of its nationals. Instead what we get is a lot of over emotional and evasive political nonsense designed to do one thing....win the vote!

This is extremely dangerous as this vote will determine the future fate of Scotland and its sons and daughters, many of whom may well vote later by moving south.

We are stronger united.......keep the nationalism to the sports field and Hollywood!
This works both ways Duncan.

How many times did Salmond try to press Darling to tell us what rUK would do if Scotland became independent? How many answers did Darling give? None.

Salmond laid out sensible plans and negotiating points, should YES come to fruition. Darling rambled, giving zero straight answers or opinions, simply endlessly repeating his pre-scripted scaremongering.

The simple fact is this, plenty of countries have become independent, starting from much less favourable starting points than Scotland - see the whole Balkan region, the breakup of the USSR and even Ireland! They've managed it, what makes you think Scotland couldn't and in all likelihood, given our starting point, actually come out of this FAR better than any of the countries I just mentioned?
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  #177  
Old 27.08.2014, 01:36
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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True for ENGLAND!
But us enslaved Celtic nationals of CORNWALL in southwest BRITAIN take take a great interest in Scotland gaining independence.
Yes, apparently the Cornish want independence now too!

This is getting ridiculous, why don't we make every county in GB & NI independent... 92 separate countries, excellent!
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  #178  
Old 27.08.2014, 01:46
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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Yes, apparently the Cornish want independence now too!

This is getting ridiculous, why don't we make every county in GB & NI independent... 92 separate countries, excellent!
Please don't suggest the Swiss federal system: we would have never ending debates on prime TV time.
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  #179  
Old 27.08.2014, 01:48
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

To keep you all up to date with the FACTS, the Scottish newspapers have published their views on the debate.

Plus some graphs, and images of front page headlines, some good stuff here,

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28936256
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  #180  
Old 27.08.2014, 10:46
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Re: Voting for Scottish Independence?

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This works both ways Duncan.

How many times did Salmond try to press Darling to tell us what rUK would do if Scotland became independent? How many answers did Darling give? None.

Salmond laid out sensible plans and negotiating points, should YES come to fruition. Darling rambled, giving zero straight answers or opinions, simply endlessly repeating his pre-scripted scaremongering.

The simple fact is this, plenty of countries have become independent, starting from much less favourable starting points than Scotland - see the whole Balkan region, the breakup of the USSR and even Ireland! They've managed it, what makes you think Scotland couldn't and in all likelihood, given our starting point, actually come out of this FAR better than any of the countries I just mentioned?
You are joking? The Balkans came about through a bloody civil war...hardly a comparison. Ireland is still dependant on EU and USA funding and can hardly be called a success story (look at Irish property market and GDP) and the countries that came out of the USSR are significantly larger and more economically viable than Scotland and are still going through difficulties of their own, politically and financially.

As for Salmond, he has not set out how he plans to have a currency, how he intends to have a defence policy or even a defence force (there is no such thing as a Scottish Army), a central bank (RBS wont do!!), pay for social services, medical system, pay for immigration and border security (we could rebuild Hadrian's Wall)....the list is endless. The UK does not need to spend millions working out the effect of Scotland's independence, it is trying to keep the UK united for everyone's benefit. Basically, what Salmond is doing is coming up with a basic business plan with no forecast or action plan, no balance sheets and expecting everyone to back him on the basis of he will work it out once you agree to it! Who in their right mind would do that?

And lastly, its not about comparing Scotland to the likes of the Balkans, Ireland or Ukraine for example.....its about whether Scotland will be better off outside the UK. And the fact is, no one can say with any certainty that it will be, based on hard evidence and real balance sheets.... If Scotland gain independence and the system fails, people and businesses will move south, leaving Scotland to the sheep.....Devolution MAX - back to the dark ages. Is that what you want for Scotland? I don't.

Last edited by DuncanS; 27.08.2014 at 11:02.
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