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  #321  
Old 20.10.2014, 11:06
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Re: Islamic State

The pragmatism of economic interests have held sway, to date. But Erdogan's domestic politics sides with Political Islam. There are strong sentiments for a renewed Islamic Empire. If they had a pathway to meet both, I would think they would go for it.

Apart from making a strong point, I'm not so sure it would bode well for Greece and Turkey to have an adversary next to each other. Their NATO membership at least enforces peace and stability. But the sentiment is understood.

Rumor has it that Turkey has finally agreed to allow Pershmerga forces into Kobani through Turkey. Apparently, given a choice between radical Islamists and the West, Turkey is heavily leaning on the side of the West. Apparently just need to be prodded towards a resolve, that's all.
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  #322  
Old 20.10.2014, 12:03
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Re: Islamic State

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Its quite naive to say ISIS are not Muslims, and they do not represent Islam. When Obama, Cameron, Kerry and whatever talking head parroted that ISIS are not Muslims, and they do not represent Islam, they were only sending assurance that the Western coalition against IS is not fighting the religion of Islam, but an isolated group. But whether or not ISIS are Muslims and they are fighting for Islam, of course they are. As Reza Aslan spells in a way the least intelligent can understand:
Reza Aslan: If ISIS Says It's Muslim, Then It's Muslim
Reza Aslan certainly has an interesting history, and at a time when talking-heads on Islam can do good business on the circuit it certainly helps to have a different angle from the mainstream
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Aslan converted to evangelical Christianity at the age of 15, and converted back to Islam the summer before attending Harvard. In 2014, Aslan described Islam as: "a man-made institution. It’s a set of symbols and metaphors that provides a language for which to express what is inexpressible, and that is faith. It’s symbols and metaphors that I prefer, but it’s not more right or more wrong than any other symbols and metaphors. It’s a language, that’s all it is."
The fact of the matter is that scores of hugely credentialed and respected scholars and Muslims organisations in Gt Britain have put pen to paper denouncing ISIS as Un-Islamic (with the requisite proofs). The term that is used for members of ISIS are Khawārijites (literally those that have left the faith) and it was the Prophet Muhammad who said “The Khawārij are the dogs of Hell.”

What is interesting is that the ISIS crowd are the ones going around calling other Muslims Kafirs worthy of slaying, and yet when moderate Muslims in the West and beyond call ISIS a death cult with no basis in Islam you choose to side with the opinions of a pop Islam scholar
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  #323  
Old 20.10.2014, 12:30
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Re: Islamic State

Turkey's position in NATO re-evaluated?


I don't think so:


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  #324  
Old 20.10.2014, 12:53
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Re: Islamic State

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What is interesting is that the ISIS crowd are the ones going around calling other Muslims Kafirs worthy of slaying, and yet when moderate Muslims in the West and beyond call ISIS a death cult with no basis in Islam you choose to side with the opinions of a pop Islam scholar
This is where the malarky is. ISIS, the death cult, does have its basis in Islam. Its a mistake not to comprehend that. To Sun-Tzu's point, "Know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles".

There was an ISIS militant captured by the Kurds. He was offered reprieve and assistance. He demanded to be killed so he can join his colleagues in paradise. Where is the basis of that notion from?

All of these Jihadists are convinced in their minds they are doing something good. But they are misguided and deceived. They found an outlet for the hatred built up in them by the humiliation they perceive themselves to be victims of. This is through the lack of proper leadership. I don't think we'll be killing them all. The resolution here will not be found in carpet bombing the place. The resolution here is proper leadership for these guys to turn to. But if you find it is more convenient to simply write them off at this point, you will not have any interest in turning these guys. That is from Jesus' admonishment to love our enemies, and it makes sounds strategic sense.

And no, I am not anti-Muslim. I'm anti-Barbarism.
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  #325  
Old 20.10.2014, 13:32
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Re: Islamic State

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Reza Aslan certainly has an interesting history, and at a time when talking-heads on Islam can do good business on the circuit it certainly helps to have a different angle from the mainstream

The fact of the matter is that scores of hugely credentialed and respected scholars and Muslims organisations in Gt Britain have put pen to paper denouncing ISIS as Un-Islamic (with the requisite proofs). The term that is used for members of ISIS are Khawārijites (literally those that have left the faith) and it was the Prophet Muhammad who said “The Khawārij are the dogs of Hell.”

What is interesting is that the ISIS crowd are the ones going around calling other Muslims Kafirs worthy of slaying, and yet when moderate Muslims in the West and beyond call ISIS a death cult with no basis in Islam you choose to side with the opinions of a pop Islam scholar


That doesn't matter. The members of ISIL are as much Muslims as anyone else. Islam is far too disparate to conform to one definition or another nor is anyone in a real position to say what is or is not Islamic and we know this because of the radically different Fiqh in many areas and simply the very different ways in which people practise Islam around the world.

What I find sad is the denunciation of ISIL by British and other Muslims saying "this isn't what Islam is", rather than "their faith is irrelevant to their actions" which is much more accurate.

To whit: while the KKK were lynching people in the name of Christianity and keeping whole towns cowering in fear for the best part of a century, the commentary was how evil and illegal and immoral their actions were not whether or not they were practising bona fide Christianity. Because of course they were (because, like Islam, it can be defined almost any way you like) but mainly because it couldn't be less relevant why they were saying they were lynching people.
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  #326  
Old 20.10.2014, 14:09
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Re: Islamic State

Turkey is not stupid. They are rational.

Turkey to Allow Kurdish Peshmerga Forces Passage to Defend Kobani from Isis

I wonder if this is coupled with an agreement with the US to no longer send air drops to Kobani. It is in Turkey's interest to particpate afterall. But the coordination between CENTCOM and Kurds ought to continue.

Meanwhile, Iran claims credit for supporting Kobani, because some of their weapons are manufactured in Iran. What cheap mentality. But I think everyone knows the score.
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  #327  
Old 20.10.2014, 15:28
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Re: Islamic State

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That doesn't matter. The members of ISIL are as much Muslims as anyone else. Islam is far too disparate to conform to one definition or another nor is anyone in a real position to say what is or is not Islamic and we know this because of the radically different Fiqh in many areas and simply the very different ways in which people practise Islam around the world.

What I find sad is the denunciation of ISIL by British and other Muslims saying "this isn't what Islam is", rather than "their faith is irrelevant to their actions" which is much more accurate.
A Muslim who drinks alcohol or eats pork and does so knowing that is is forbidden is a sinful Muslim. However one who does so and claims that their faith allows it (i.e. introducing innovation into the core agreed faith) crosses the threshold into apostasy. That much is clear, understood and not disputed by any Muslim (look it up)

Therefore an ISIL fighter who slaughters innocent civilians, beheads journalists, aid workers and then claims to be doing so in the name of Islam, similarly has become an apostate in the eyes of mainstream Islam (there may be some fringe groups who disagree, but in such a disparate and widely practiced faith you can only go by mainstream opinion).

Now whether ISIL fighters themselves know it is a different matter, I guess you can brainwash anyone into doing anything. We already know that many of the young Muslims who went out there to fight were duped (thinking it was Jihad against Assad as opposed to gang warfare) and are now pleading to come home even if it means imprisonment.

Therefore it is factually and notionally correct for these British Imams and organisations to declare that ISIL are Un-Islamic, you just need a single proof where they have transcended clear, agreed boundaries... and they have.
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  #328  
Old 20.10.2014, 15:43
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Re: Islamic State

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Therefore an ISIL fighter who slaughters innocent civilians, beheads journalists, aid workers and then claims to be doing so in the name of Islam, similarly has become an apostate in the eyes of mainstream Islam (there may be some fringe groups who disagree, but in such a disparate and widely practiced faith you can only go by mainstream opinion).
I understand their line of contention here is that those they kill and behead are already apostates, given that they do not follow the Quran mandate of establishing the Caliphate their Islamic State purports to be. Question here is if beheading is suitable for apostasy in Islam. I understand it is.

They also recently offered their rationalization for slavery of non-believers, also as they claim their reading of scripture allows them to.


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Therefore it is factually and notionally correct for these British Imams and organisations to declare that ISIL are Un-Islamic, you just need a single proof where they have transcended clear, agreed boundaries... and they have.
I don't think it is the West that needs tutoring and convincing that this group is Un-Islamic and non-Muslims. Looks like a groundswell of Sunnis in Iraq and Syria accepts their teachings. Those are the ones who need that conversation.

By the way, Castro, what do you think should be done with them, as Khawārijites?

Last edited by Phos; 20.10.2014 at 15:57.
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  #329  
Old 20.10.2014, 16:36
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Re: Islamic State

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A Muslim who drinks alcohol or eats pork and does so knowing that is is forbidden is a sinful Muslim. However one who does so and claims that their faith allows it (i.e. introducing innovation into the core agreed faith) crosses the threshold into apostasy. That much is clear, understood and not disputed by any Muslim (look it up)...
Sorry for derailing the thread but a muslim who knowingly drinks (and/or within the same line eats salami) is a sinful muslim? Sin based on rules dictated by conditions of Arab deserts in seventh century? That is the main problem with the mainstream Islam; it is not progressing/adapting
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  #330  
Old 20.10.2014, 16:42
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Re: Islamic State

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Sorry for derailing the thread but a muslim who knowingly drinks (and/or within the same line eats salami) is a sinful muslim? Sin based on rules dictated by conditions of Arab deserts in seventh century? That is the main problem with the mainstream Islam; it is not progressing/adapting

Rules is rules.


Doesn't matter what the rules are for, as long as one demonstrates one's commitment to God by following them (or at least trying to!).
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  #331  
Old 20.10.2014, 16:46
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Re: Islamic State

You can say alcohol compelled you to drink it and then claim taqiyya, ez
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  #332  
Old 20.10.2014, 17:09
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Re: Islamic State

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A Muslim who drinks alcohol or eats pork and does so knowing that is is forbidden is a sinful Muslim. However one who does so and claims that their faith allows it (i.e. introducing innovation into the core agreed faith) crosses the threshold into apostasy. That much is clear, understood and not disputed by any Muslim (look it up)

Therefore an ISIL fighter who slaughters innocent civilians, beheads journalists, aid workers and then claims to be doing so in the name of Islam, similarly has become an apostate in the eyes of mainstream Islam (there may be some fringe groups who disagree, but in such a disparate and widely practiced faith you can only go by mainstream opinion).
You're trying to appoint a Caliphate here and there is none. There are a lot of Imams who all think slightly differently. There are no Core Agreed Anythings and capitalising doesn't lend credibility. The most important authority in modern day Islam the Sheikh of Al Azhar condemns most Islamic extremism as a Zionist plot. There aren't many Muslims who you and I would call reasonable who believe him though.

In practise many Muslims in the middle east drink alcohol and they agree they shouldn't but they also agree that it isn't the most important rule so long as they don't get too drunk. Most Muslims I've met in Europe would never touch a drop.

You'll find no one in ISIL who believes that murder is awesome and authorised in the Quran. They will find somewhere in the Quran that says that killing is occasionally OK and craft the narrative to fit. Which is what everyone else does too, whether they want a nice bit of Arak of an evening, want to chop off a charity worker's head, want to appoint a female Bishop or create an argument for not appointing the same Bishop.

To say that there's just one truth to anything is incredibly dangerous and quite frankly untrue - in Islam or anywhere else.

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Rules is rules.
Rules are indeed rules. But nowhere in the Quran does it forbid drinking alcohol and nowhere in the Talmud does it forbid the mixture of milk and meat. However these are clearly central tenant to Islam and Judaism respectively. You'd think a Bar Mitzvah is also a pretty Jewish thing although this too is a European innovation and did not exist in the time of the Temple. Religions change and evolve.
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  #333  
Old 20.10.2014, 17:29
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Re: Islamic State

BTW I just googled "core agreed faith" and this page was the only hit

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=co...greed+faith%22
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  #334  
Old 20.10.2014, 17:31
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Re: Islamic State

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BTW I just googled "core agreed faith" and this page was the only hit

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=co...greed+faith%22
The Islamic cored agreed faith is written right on the ISIS flag.

For those Muslims who have labelled ISIS as non-Muslim Khawārijites and un-Islamic, especially Castro, I''d like to understand what they are implying as a resolution to ISIS. Isolate, hunt them down, and annihilate them? If not, pray tell.
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  #335  
Old 20.10.2014, 17:42
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Re: Islamic State

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The Islamic cored agreed faith is written right on the ISIS flag.
I'm glad you made my point for me - the Shahada actually differs for most Shia with an addition referencing Ali. So even the core isn't really core.
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  #336  
Old 20.10.2014, 17:54
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Re: Islamic State

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Rules is rules.


Doesn't matter what the rules are for, as long as one demonstrates one's commitment to God by following them (or at least trying to!).
Then I guess there are a lot of Christians who aren't because there are restrictions on eating pork, etc, in the Old Testament and I haven't met one Christian yet that followed those rules.

And I'm sorry, but it does matter what the rules are for. If there is a good reason for not eating or drinking certain things fine. But if it's just to make yourself different from everyone else then no. Just because a book written hundreds or thousands of years ago says don't eat this, don't drink this, is not a good reason.
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  #337  
Old 20.10.2014, 17:57
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Re: Islamic State

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Then I guess there are a lot of Christians who aren't because there are restrictions on eating pork, etc, in the Old Testament and I haven't met one Christian yet that followed those rules.
You're not even allowed to touch to skin of a pig! Which puts my Fighting Irish in a sorry spot indeed...



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  #338  
Old 20.10.2014, 18:31
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Re: Islamic State

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Rules is rules.


Doesn't matter what the rules are for, as long as one demonstrates one's commitment to God by following them (or at least trying to!).
That's the core issue with many religions, the basic idea is OK but then the people who appointed themselves as religious leaders take the holy books and use them to justify a lot of daft rules that have no links with worship.
Examples;
  • walk to church
  • don't drink alcohol
  • don't use condoms
  • eat fish on Fridays
  • dress women in tents
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Old 20.10.2014, 18:43
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Re: Islamic State

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That's the core issue with many religions, the basic idea is OK but then the people who appointed themselves as religious leaders take the holy books and use them to justify a lot of daft rules that have no links with worship.
Examples;
  • walk to church
  • don't drink alcohol
  • don't use condoms
  • eat fish on Fridays
  • dress women in tents
What has worship got to do with religion? Honestly your post seems both ignorant and inflammatory
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Old 20.10.2014, 18:56
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Re: Islamic State

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What has worship got to do with religion? Honestly your post seems both ignorant and inflammatory
A lot I'd say. Most people have a religion they belong to which defines how they worship - complete with silly rules. I remember when I went to Sunday school at my local Church of the Nazarene being told not to use words like gosh and got because I'd be taking the Lord's name in vain.
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