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  #441  
Old 27.02.2015, 22:36
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Re: Islamic State

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This is a good watch, an Oxford Union Debate on the very subject of whether or not Islam is a peaceful religion.

The guy is loud and didn't come up with any convincing argument other than Tu quoque.
Any religion or sect whose fundamental tenet isn't non-violence can't claim to be peaceful (Buddhism, Jainism, Vaishnavism, Sufism etc) irrespective whether its adherent are actually peaceful or violent.


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  #442  
Old 27.02.2015, 23:04
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Re: Islamic State

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Any religion or sect whose fundamental tenet isn't non-violence can't claim to be peaceful (Buddhism, Jainism, Vaishnavism, Sufism etc) irrespective whether its adherent are actually peaceful or violent.
So how does this explain the rise in violent attacks on Muslims and Christians by Buddhist monks in Myanamar and Sri Lanka?
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  #443  
Old 27.02.2015, 23:20
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Re: Islamic State

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So how does this explain the rise in violent attacks on Muslims and Christians by Buddhist monks in Myanamar and Sri Lanka?
Simple. It doesn't. As I said that the adherents may or may not be peaceful or violent. There is a difference between what a religion fundamentally says and what it followers might do in their individual or even collective capacity. 'Theoretically' Buddhism, Jainism etc can claim to be peaceful because Ahingsha is their fundamental aspect.


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  #444  
Old 28.02.2015, 00:05
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Re: Islamic State

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That's a theory you keep repeating with no historical evidence to back it up, DB. When on earth did Eastern Christianity have these ambitions - expansions and conquering through war? I would compare it with "early" Roman Catholic church, if really needed....
Now, I usually like your posts and all that, but you are so wrong on a few matters I don't even know how to begin with...I mean, it's so obviously ridiculous and for some reason you keep drawing parallels where there are no parallels, and conclusions that somehow fit your personal views but have nothing to do with history, or reality.
I had no idea that living in rural Greece for a little while could make people believe they know and understand everything...now try and live in a very rural place somewhere in Sicily and then please tell me your conclusions.

Well, under Czaress Katharina II,





the Russian Orthodoxy spread to the Black Sea, to Central Asia and to the Pacific. You of course can correctly state that Katharina the Great did NOT have this aspect in mind
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  #445  
Old 28.02.2015, 11:15
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Re: Islamic State

A very eloquent and apparently well-informed speaker. However, this was a debate -- it would be good to hear the other side! Taken out of context, just about anything can be made to sound good.

Last edited by 22 yards; 28.02.2015 at 11:30.
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  #446  
Old 28.02.2015, 11:46
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Re: Islamic State

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The guy is loud and didn't come up with any convincing argument other than Tu quoque.
Any religion or sect whose fundamental tenet isn't non-violence can't claim to be peaceful (Buddhism, Jainism, Vaishnavism, Sufism etc) irrespective whether its adherent are actually peaceful or violent.
Douglas Murray was not available for this debate, so was replaced him with a punching bag dummy for Mehdi Hussain. Other such debates are not as encouraging.

Notice Buddhist, Jains, and other hardly ever claim to be religions of peace. Its because they don't have to. I credit the awareness of Ahimsa in the West as a catalyst for accentuating parallel teachings of Jesus in mainstream Christian thought.

The description of violence in religious scripture is typically meant to be allegorical, and not literally prescriptive. There is Arjuna and Kali in the Baghavad Gita, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him", concepts of spiritual warfare in Christianity. These describe internal spiritual struggles. When applied externally for real violence towards real people, it just becomes diabolically evil. It would be great to identify Islamic teachings that parallel Ahimsa, then teach them to violent Jihadists as fundamental. I think this requires a transformation and rebirth of Islam. But any such nuance are resisted and taken as sophistry and innovation. Yet violence is willingly accepted. I'd love to see the peacefulness of Islam proven by reality and around this point rather than empty and useless statements nobody really believes.
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  #447  
Old 28.02.2015, 13:28
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Re: Islamic State

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This is a good watch, an Oxford Union Debate on the very subject of whether or not Islam is a peaceful religion.

like most recent "debates" with respect to Islam, he (a) first brings up the development of algebra, whose only tie to Islam is that it arose in a society that was subject to colonization by Muslims, i.e. the development of algebra had everything to do with broader and tremendous thinking among the Arab (or Persian, depending upon which scholar you ask) communities, and nothing whatsoever to do with Islam, and (b) spends most of the rest of his time describing the many atrocities committed in the name of other religions, as if the faults of another excuses one's own faults. this is disingenuous and, in terms of simple debating, little more than an attempt to rebut through distraction.

there is no such thing as a "peaceful religion". there are tenets in every organized religion that can be construed as a path to peaceful existence amongst believers, but there is not a single organized Abrahamic religion that can consistently be construed as a path to peaceful coexistence. there are good passages, yes, and even good believers, but there are always just as many bad passages, and even more bad believers. this is not true just of Islam, but of each of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

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  #448  
Old 28.02.2015, 13:41
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Re: Islamic State

and I much prefer this apology:



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  #449  
Old 28.02.2015, 13:58
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Re: Islamic State

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there is no such thing as a "peaceful religion". there are tenets in every organized religion that can be construed as a path to peaceful existence amongst believers, but there is not a single organized Abrahamic religion that can consistently be construed as a path to peaceful coexistence. there are good passages, yes, and even good believers, but there are always just as many bad passages, and even more bad believers. this is not true just of Islam, but of each of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
It could be as erroneous to attribute unpeacefulness to religion as well. Clearly, peace and lack of it depends on the humans involved. You'll find war where no religion is involved. It seems religion is just brutally frank about the constitution of human nature, as it should. Yet , atheists can and have been known to be just as violent. I don't know the figures, but just as much, if not more, have been murdered in the name of socialism as religion. Just the same, These statements of being "of peace"" needs to proven in reality, through constant effort, not merely in arguments and empty statements.
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  #450  
Old 28.02.2015, 14:18
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Re: Islamic State

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It could be as erroneous to attribute unpeacefulness to religion as well. Clearly, peace and lack of it depends on the humans involved. You'll find war where no religion is involved. It seems religion is just brutally frank about the constitution of human nature, as it should. Yet , atheists can and have been known to be just as violent. I don't know the figures, but just as much, if not more, have been murdered in the name of socialism as religion. Just the same, These statements of being "of peace"" needs to proven in reality, through constant effort, not merely in arguments and empty statements.
Abrahamic religions can never be "of peace", because their underlying monotheism is, by its very nature, totalitarian. this doesn't mean that only Abrahamic religions lead to violence, as you rightfully point out, since there are literally countless of other systems of belief that can result in the exact same kind of totalitarianism (Maoism, for example, or Stalinism, or facism, or even racism). but it does mean that Abrahamic religions will never - and I do mean never - lead to peace, which I think history has more than sufficiently proven.
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  #451  
Old 28.02.2015, 20:23
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Re: Islamic State

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Abrahamic religions can never be "of peace", because their underlying monotheism is, by its very nature, totalitarian. this doesn't mean that only Abrahamic religions lead to violence, as you rightfully point out, since there are literally countless of other systems of belief that can result in the exact same kind of totalitarianism (Maoism, for example, or Stalinism, or facism, or even racism). but it does mean that Abrahamic religions will never - and I do mean never - lead to peace, which I think history has more than sufficiently proven.
I'm not sure, and would have to say that it depends how it is applied. If the religion is applied towards political power and building an empire, than I would agree with you. But if the religion is applied purely for personal betterment towards attainment of living righteously, and for the purpose of peace in itself, then of course it can. And it has. But perhaps this is not so spectacular to see. The teachings are imbued with spiritual wisdom for one's spiritual growth. Considering how many refrained from judging another, or turned the other cheek, per Jesus's teaching, we wouldn't know how many conflicts have been averted, because they never occurred.
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  #452  
Old 28.02.2015, 23:00
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Re: Islamic State

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(a) first brings up the development of algebra,

The history of Algebra can be traced to the Babylonians and Indians independently. This case is similar to the Europeans ascribing the name 'Arabic Numerals' to what was developed by Indian mathematicians some 700 years before the Arabs became powerful enough to get acquainted with it and spread it to the West.
And I am yet to understand what algebra has to do with peacefulness.

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  #453  
Old 28.02.2015, 23:06
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Re: Islamic State

IS members are all eunics.

Had they any balls, they'd give their victims a chance to fight back.

Bunch of pussies.

Tom
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  #454  
Old 28.02.2015, 23:25
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Re: Islamic State

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IS members are all eunics.

Had they any balls, they'd give their victims a chance to fight back.

Bunch of pussies.

Tom

I just heard they have a court




http://www.ktvz.com/news/report-isis...rians/31540788
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  #455  
Old 01.03.2015, 00:03
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Re: Islamic State

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I'm not sure, and would have to say that it depends how it is applied. If the religion is applied towards political power and building an empire, than I would agree with you. But if the religion is applied purely for personal betterment towards attainment of living righteously, and for the purpose of peace in itself, then of course it can. And it has. But perhaps this is not so spectacular to see. The teachings are imbued with spiritual wisdom for one's spiritual growth. Considering how many refrained from judging another, or turned the other cheek, per Jesus's teaching, we wouldn't know how many conflicts have been averted, because they never occurred.
the problem, however, is that Jesus' teaching died with Jesus, everything since then has been about nothing other than political power and building an empire. I've posted it before and I still think it is true - Christianity is significant in terms of the development of modern thought only in its concept of forgiveness, which simply does not exist in Judaism or Islam. the Christian concept of "forgiveness", however, was co-opted by the Catholic Church nearly 2,000 years ago, and I am not sure it exists any longer. without question history would suggest that it has not been practiced in quite some time.

there are peaceful people who happen to be Christians, just as there are peaceful people who happen to be Jews, and peaceful people who happen to be Muslims. it's obviously a chicken and egg debate, but I suspect those people would be peaceful even without their religion, which is why they are able to focus on the part of their faith that promotes peace while completely ignoring the part of their faith that does not.
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Old 01.03.2015, 03:23
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Re: Islamic State

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the problem, however, is that Jesus' teaching died with Jesus, everything since then has been about nothing other than political power and building an empire. I've posted it before and I still think it is true - Christianity is significant in terms of the development of modern thought only in its concept of forgiveness, which simply does not exist in Judaism or Islam. the Christian concept of "forgiveness", however, was co-opted by the Catholic Church nearly 2,000 years ago, and I am not sure it exists any longer. without question history would suggest that it has not been practiced in quite some time.

there are peaceful people who happen to be Christians, just as there are peaceful people who happen to be Jews, and peaceful people who happen to be Muslims. it's obviously a chicken and egg debate, but I suspect those people would be peaceful even without their religion, which is why they are able to focus on the part of their faith that promotes peace while completely ignoring the part of their faith that does not.
Hmm, that made me think it's really sad if people need to follow a religion in order to be forgiving, peaceful, or have any other moral quality that makes them better than..I don't know, animals, and even sadder if all these religions that have so many followers (how many Christians plus Muslims all together? Billions) don't have and don't practice these concepts. After all, it's also a matter of public mental hygiene.
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  #457  
Old 01.03.2015, 04:23
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Re: Islamic State

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the problem, however, is that Jesus' teaching died with Jesus, everything since then has been about nothing other than political power and building an empire. I've posted it before and I still think it is true - Christianity is significant in terms of the development of modern thought only in its concept of forgiveness, which simply does not exist in Judaism or Islam. the Christian concept of "forgiveness", however, was co-opted by the Catholic Church nearly 2,000 years ago, and I am not sure it exists any longer. without question history would suggest that it has not been practiced in quite some time.

there are peaceful people who happen to be Christians, just as there are peaceful people who happen to be Jews, and peaceful people who happen to be Muslims. it's obviously a chicken and egg debate, but I suspect those people would be peaceful even without their religion, which is why they are able to focus on the part of their faith that promotes peace while completely ignoring the part of their faith that does not.
What you wrote is interesting. Can we think that human propensity to forgiveness, generosity and other charitable concepts increases with our economical well-being and personal safety? Is this ability to forgive socio-economically conditioned and can peaceful mindset be nourished, independently of religion? People who aren't hungry are generally more likely to share..for noble reasons or not.

Maybe, on average, human mind will gravitate towards monotheism just as much as it usually refuses certain level of uncomfortable relativism or the responsibility that comes with having a lot of choice.

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Old 01.03.2015, 04:39
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Re: Islamic State

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The history of Algebra can be traced to the Babylonians and Indians independently. This case is similar to the Europeans ascribing the name 'Arabic Numerals' to what was developed by Indian mathematicians some 700 years before the Arabs became powerful enough to get acquainted with it and spread it to the West.
And I am yet to understand what algebra has to do with peacefulness.

Regards


Here











you can see the European numerals on the top line and the Arab numerals right below


What Europe adapted was the decimal System and to have single numbers on the far right the two-digit number following to the left and the three-digit ones next



AND most of all the figure ZERO
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Old 01.03.2015, 10:22
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Re: Islamic State

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What you wrote is interesting. Can we think that human propensity to forgiveness, generosity and other charitable concepts increases with our economical well-being and personal safety? Is this ability to forgive socio-economically conditioned and can peaceful mindset be nourished, independently of religion? People who aren't hungry are generally more likely to share..for noble reasons or not.
.
No, actually this is where religions want to take action. It doesn't matter your economic status, you have to share, be forgiving and so on. And logically, it doesn't make any sense to believe that someone who's not hungry can be actually more sympathetic to someone who is.
I refuse to believe what you have written because we would be all f***d up if it really was like that. Ditto for the other theory.
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Old 01.03.2015, 11:06
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Re: Islamic State

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No, actually this is where religions want to take action. It doesn't matter your economic status, you have to share, be forgiving and so on.
to be more precise, it is only Christianity that suggests an obligation of forgiveness. in Judaism and Islam, the concept is much more akin to atonement, which is not the same as forgiveness at all. and, even in Christianity, the Catholic Church has co-opted the concept and most non-Catholic believers get lost in the Old Testament and miss the point - hence the concept of the "Protestant work ethic", which is the genesis of much of the worst right wing economic thought in the US.

Abrahamic religions are no different than any other belief systems, they are used to ensure the economic status of a small group of people (always men) at the expense of others. it is certainly that way with Christianity (just look at the history of the Catholic Church and the development of every western monarchy), as well as with Islam (it is no coincidence that regimes based upon Islam are overwhelmingly totalitarian).
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