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Old 15.09.2014, 07:47
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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and then what? I mean, after ISIS is "wiped out"?



in 5 years, "the west" will have spent trillions of dollars more and will have sacrificed even more lives of soldiers and civilians, Iraq and Syria will still be utterly devastated, terrorist organizations (be they Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, Al Qaeda, ISIS or Lord knows what else) will still be committing senseless and counter-productive acts of violence...

...and Saudi will have printed trillions more in US dollars, attracted even more than that in private western capital investment and will have effectively stolen even more western technology. and Saudi women will still not be permitted to drive or leave the country without the signature of a male sponsor, the average Saudi youth will still have virtually zero career opportunities, and rich Saudis will still be using non-Saudi Muslims as indentured servants.

I apologize, btw, for being so cynical, but honestly there are too many people on all sides of the issues buying into the low-hanging fruit about "good guys" and "bad guys", when the reality is that the issues are not all that complex and there have never been any "good guys". ISIS needs to be addressed, and they will be, but the real question is where do we go from there?

I agree. I lived in Bahrain and Saudi (never again) and frankly Saudi is not so dissimilar to what ISIS want to achieve with a Caliphate (just with a different gang in charge). Out of curiosity, why do you think The West supports Saudi? In a previous post you suggested that it's not primarily because of the oil.

I also feel that the Saudis are the real targets of IS
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  #42  
Old 15.09.2014, 08:47
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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I agree. I lived in Bahrain and Saudi (never again) and frankly Saudi is not so dissimilar to what ISIS want to achieve with a Caliphate (just with a different gang in charge). Out of curiosity, why do you think The West supports Saudi? In a previous post you suggested that it's not primarily because of the oil.

I also feel that the Saudis are the real targets of IS
I can just imagine the rapture of slaughtering infidels in Mecca and Medina would bring to our IS friends.

Paradise on earth at last!
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  #43  
Old 15.09.2014, 09:03
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Simple answer 1
Pull out completely and leave them to it, stop reporting and hope it never bothers us.

Simple answer 2
Abolish all religion.

Simple answer 3
Turn back time and leave Sadam et all in power

Unfortunately there is no complex and correct answer.
1- problem with that is they want to dominate the world so if do nothing, we will soon regret it on our own lands.

2- that's never gonna happen.

3- Aren't they working on it?
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Old 15.09.2014, 12:04
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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I agree. I lived in Bahrain and Saudi (never again) and frankly Saudi is not so dissimilar to what ISIS want to achieve with a Caliphate (just with a different gang in charge). Out of curiosity, why do you think The West supports Saudi? In a previous post you suggested that it's not primarily because of the oil.

I also feel that the Saudis are the real targets of IS
I am sure that the finding of oil back in the 1930's had an influence on US policy-making in the region, but I think the primary driver for US support of Saudi was the same as US support for Israel - the Soviet Union / Russia. a new Israel and a Saudi regime on the US side represented key allies against Soviet influence in the region for quite some time.

unfortunately, the Russians, just like the British, have learned the hard way about trying to influence the situation in the middle east, and so Russian meddling in the region is much less than it was 80 years ago. I think the legitimate US foreign policy interest in the region is largely gone, and what we are left with are only private US business interests - and use of US national resources and lives of soldiers / public servants in connection with protecting only private business interests seems entirely unethical, inefficient and just plain wrong to me.

Russia no longer needs the middle east, it had nothing but bad experiences in the region, now has its own oil and Putin is more than happy to focus his resources much closer to home. the US likewise no longer needs the middle east, it sources very little of its oil from the region any longer and should likewise focus its resources much closer to home, as well as much closer to Putin's home. continued US-support for Saudi is a very expensive distraction from the real foreign-policy problems that are coming.
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  #45  
Old 15.09.2014, 12:33
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Beside being NEUTRAL, Switzerland does NOT produce fighter planes
What does being neutral having to do with the topic? Switzerland has without doubt a very profitable defence industry exporting anything from guns to tanks and what not...

And planes - Since when? Pilatus has decades of experience selling "trainers" which were armed and used as counter insurgency fighter. They are known as "poor man's air force" all over Africa and have been used by anyone from South American regimes shooting rebels in the jungle over mercenaries in Sierra Leone to Saddam who used them to drop chemical weapons on Iranians... as well as on the Kurdish minority in his own country.

When the "new" Iraqi airforce wanted to buy new "COIN" fighters in the last years they naturally included Pilatus in the RFQ... but then decided to buy an American product instead.
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  #46  
Old 15.09.2014, 14:23
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

So in summary, humans are doing what humans have tended to do in all of human history, ignoring that no one is created equal, rather uniquely individual, and when forcing square pegs into round holes it is bound to draw blood and destroy both sides.
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Old 15.09.2014, 15:37
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

This has nothing to do with religion. It's about a gang of fanatics who uses the momentum of their dynamics to satisfy some diseased ego.

It feels like the bullies in life have been rounded up and given a new breath of life to carry out their sick fantasies.
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  #48  
Old 15.09.2014, 15:41
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

I hope that I'm wrong, but I have a feeling this tragic death is going to be used to urge people to vote "No" or "Yes" in the Scottish independence election this week.
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  #49  
Old 15.09.2014, 17:37
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

As sad as the execution of the westerners is, it does little to change the way our governments treat the Middle East.

Our foreign policy is very binary, Saddam Hussein was bad, therefore anything else must be much better than the bad dictator who suppresses his people and owes the west gazillions for weapons he couldn't afford. So let's interfere and sort that problem out using our moral values and justice system. Fail. Result -people still dying unnecessarily in a civil war.

Gaddafi: bad, therefore anything else must be much better than the bad dictator who suppresses his people and owes the west gazillions for weapons he couldn't afford. So let's interfere and sort that problem out using our moral values and justice system. Fail. Result -people still dying unnecessarily in a civil war.

Syria: al-Assad bad, therefore anything else must be much better than the bad dictator who suppresses his people and owes the Russians gazillions for weapons he can't afford. So let's interfere and support his enemies, because his enemy must be our friend using simple logic. Fail. Result -people still dying unnecessarily in a civil war.

(You can extend this list to include Afghanistan, Vietnam in a broader context as well ....)

So you can blame IS for their barbaric ways and means, but take a close look at how our own governments have made a complete hash of using their foreign policy skill sets by not ensuring that the more stable Middle Eastern nations aren't also held accountable for being a part of the peace process. Why hasn't this happened? Because we want to keep on selling them weapons they'll never use for peaceful means which create jobs back home that gets them re-elected.

Politics isn't about helping others, it's about maneuvering your ass into abusing even more power.
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  #50  
Old 15.09.2014, 18:02
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

I really wish the word 'execute' would not be used in relation to these murders.
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  #51  
Old 15.09.2014, 18:15
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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1- problem with that is they want to dominate the world so if do nothing, we will soon regret it on our own lands.

2- that's never gonna happen.

3- Aren't they working on it?
Er...where have IS documented that they want to rule the world? They want to establish their own dystopian state, sure, but they aren't a threat to the US/UK right now. Even the US Joint Chief's chairman doesn't believe they are a threat. So you cant say they want to 'dominate the world' when they just pay lip service to that, and everyone knows they aren't actually capable of that (yet).

Fighting anyone who could potentially be a threat is like burning a forest down because you might get a paper cut...it will stop it from happening, but you make a much bigger mess to clear up later.

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As sad as the execution of the westerners is, it does little to change the way our governments treat the Middle East.

Our foreign policy is very binary, Saddam Hussein was bad, therefore anything else must be much better than the bad dictator who suppresses his people and owes the west gazillions for weapons he couldn't afford. So let's interfere and sort that problem out using our moral values and justice system. Fail. Result -people still dying unnecessarily in a civil war.

Gaddafi: bad, therefore anything else must be much better than the bad dictator who suppresses his people and owes the west gazillions for weapons he couldn't afford. So let's interfere and sort that problem out using our moral values and justice system. Fail. Result -people still dying unnecessarily in a civil war.

Syria: al-Assad bad, therefore anything else must be much better than the bad dictator who suppresses his people and owes the Russians gazillions for weapons he can't afford. So let's interfere and support his enemies, because his enemy must be our friend using simple logic. Fail. Result -people still dying unnecessarily in a civil war.

(You can extend this list to include Afghanistan, Vietnam in a broader context as well ....)

So you can blame IS for their barbaric ways and means, but take a close look at how our own governments have made a complete hash of using their foreign policy skill sets by not ensuring that the more stable Middle Eastern nations aren't also held accountable for being a part of the peace process. Why hasn't this happened? Because we want to keep on selling them weapons they'll never use for peaceful means which create jobs back home that gets them re-elected.

Politics isn't about helping others, it's about maneuvering your ass into abusing even more power.
+1. Fantastic summary.
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  #52  
Old 15.09.2014, 18:56
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Er...where have IS documented that they want to rule the world? They want to establish their own dystopian state, sure, but they aren't a threat to the US/UK right now. Even the US Joint Chief's chairman doesn't believe they are a threat. So you cant say they want to 'dominate the world' when they just pay lip service to that, and everyone knows they aren't actually capable of that (yet).

Fighting anyone who could potentially be a threat is like burning a forest down because you might get a paper cut...it will stop it from happening, but you make a much bigger mess to clear up later.



+1. Fantastic summary.
In their first video of the murder, they say they will drown the west into their own blood.

They ARE after destroying the west and they want to rule the world. Anyone who isn't Muslim should die. So they have a big plan with a very very long term goal if they are thinking to exterminate everyone who isn't with them.
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Old 15.09.2014, 19:22
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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in their first video of the murder, they say they will drown the west into their own blood.

They are after destroying the west and they want to rule the world. Anyone who isn't Sunni Muslim Salafist should die. So they have a big plan with a very very long term goal if they are thinking to exterminate everyone who isn't with them.

ftfy
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Old 15.09.2014, 20:11
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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I really wish the word 'execute' would not be used in relation to these murders.
I keep thinking that too when I hear it on the news. Or "executioner". Killing/killer/murder/murderer seems more appropriate.
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Old 15.09.2014, 20:40
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

http://www.blick.ch/news/ausland/tax...id3128847.html

Alan Henning, 47 y.o. ex-taxi driver from Manchester UK, is another ex-aid worker for Syria and he might be the next victim to be murdered by Islamic State. He made one relief trip to Syria and was deeply moved by the Syrians plight, that he then made a second trip, then in December near the Turkish border he was kidnapped and disappeared. Now he has been seen on an IS video.

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  #56  
Old 15.09.2014, 20:41
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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In their first video of the murder, they say they will drown the west into their own blood.

They ARE after destroying the west and they want to rule the world. Anyone who isn't Muslim should die. So they have a big plan with a very very long term goal if they are thinking to exterminate everyone who isn't with them.
...I think it is more like this:

Anyone who doesn't adopt their version of Islam and Sharia Law should die.

It would appear to me that there is no Caliphate, just a self-appointed Caliph who will tolerate no objection, no dissension, no interference, upon pain of death, and only those may live who he chooses and who adhere strictly to his dictates. It is not negotiable and it doesn't appear that there is any limit he will not go to to achieve his goals. Genghis Khan, Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, etc. rose (and fell) on on their totality, and I think we are now in for yet another run of this old script.
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Old 15.09.2014, 21:02
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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In their first video of the murder, they say they will drown the west into their own blood.

They ARE after destroying the west and they want to rule the world. Anyone who isn't Muslim should die. So they have a big plan with a very very long term goal if they are thinking to exterminate everyone who isn't with them.
Sure but if we took steps to bomb into oblivion, everyone who has a grudge against the US we'd run out of bombs fairly sharpish.

My point was that them paying lip service to destroying the west is one thing, and them being a credible threat is another. When their COS Chairman doesn't believe they are a credible threat, how can anyone else be sure?

If you get goaded into acting from the former, you have been provoked into rash and probably (as in this case) unnecessary action. Moreover, it is likely to make the problem worse, since you do their recruiting for them. How can you guarantee that a bomb will not harm a civilian?

I can plan and claim that i will put a jolly roger on 10 Downing Street in 10 years. Doesn't mean i will ever be a threat to the old Jack up there now.

You act when you are aware of a credible threat, not the lip service of a few madmen.
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Old 15.09.2014, 21:36
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Re: Islamic State exectes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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RIP.... David Haynes.

And, apparently, the next to be butchered has been identified.

Got me totally convinced of the righteousness of their cause.
Not.

And what do we hear from the wider Muslim community?

The Arab League has decided to fight the ISIS extremists with all available means. The Resolution got passed without any objection


Iran, usually not too pro-Arab, dispatched ist best General to Iraq to bring down ISIS. He a year ago had turned the weak Syrian army into a real military force


Russia, not a Muslim nation but a nation with large Muslim minorities, recently started to supply fighter bombers to the Iraqi Air Force
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  #59  
Old 15.09.2014, 21:46
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Anyone who isn't Muslim should die
I would say 95% of their victims so far have been Muslim.
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Old 15.09.2014, 22:22
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Sure but if we took steps to bomb into oblivion, everyone who has a grudge against the US we'd run out of bombs fairly sharpish.

My point was that them paying lip service to destroying the west is one thing, and them being a credible threat is another. When their COS Chairman doesn't believe they are a credible threat, how can anyone else be sure?

If you get goaded into acting from the former, you have been provoked into rash and probably (as in this case) unnecessary action. Moreover, it is likely to make the problem worse, since you do their recruiting for them. How can you guarantee that a bomb will not harm a civilian?

I can plan and claim that i will put a jolly roger on 10 Downing Street in 10 years. Doesn't mean i will ever be a threat to the old Jack up there now.

You act when you are aware of a credible threat, not the lip service of a few madmen.
Castro, you are right. I wrote fast and didn't re-read.

If you have a credible source that tells you there is a real threat and don't act, you are doomed.

IS has the means to carry on their threat. I do t want to wait and see if they will do it or not.

Like I said in an other thread, I believe war against terrorists and fantasists is the 3rd World War.

I don't believe we should just sit, cross our arms, wait and see.
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