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  #81  
Old 23.09.2014, 09:18
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Five Arab nations are taking part in the first round of airstrikes in Syria: Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates.
Airstrikes are carried out without the consent of the Syrian government.
Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the UAE?
All those democratically elected governments?
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  #82  
Old 23.09.2014, 09:19
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

The courts of International law are a joke, a bunch of countries squabbling and trying to get the best deal.
ISIS had it coming and I hope that they fry a whole bunch of these whiny east London "soldiers of Allah" as a plus.

Thing is I think that the IS are just a bunch of opportunist stoners filling the vaccum left by the dictators, not half the threat the west media makes them out to be, but it makes for great popcorn news and distracts from Ukraine and global warming and China and, and, and.
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  #83  
Old 23.09.2014, 09:21
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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In Northern Ireland the division between the two groups was more to do with politics than religion in my opinion.
Sure, 100% correct. But do you honestly believe that the different Muslim fractions are killing each other because they interpret some details of their book differently? It's the same sort of political power game...
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  #84  
Old 23.09.2014, 09:23
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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and distracts from Ukraine
Death toll:

Ukraine: 3-4k
Syria: 100k

ISIS is a little more than a bunch of stoners...
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  #85  
Old 23.09.2014, 09:48
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Death toll:

Ukraine: 3-4k
Syria: 100k

ISIS is a little more than a bunch of stoners...
100k, still only a squabble for the region wait until the new borders have been drawn and see what happens to those caught on the wrong side of the new sectarian (tribal) lines then.
The only two things that ISIS is good at is at occupying territory where sectarian forces are fighting amongst themselves, that and PR, in fact the PR is so good I would not be surprised if they had a New Yorker advertising company do the image brochure.
So what do you have for combat?
I read something like 10.000 troops, most are Iraqi and Syrian sunnis., a handful of European "solders of Allah" with no combat value at all, but the scary ones, the real freakazoid nasties are the thousand or so Chechans.
But still you have only a small force, so they are never going to take the larger cities in Iraq and Syria and the Kurdish Pesch Merga are giving them a good kicking in the north.
What is going on there at the moment is like a Islamic Game of Thrones, great fun to watch, but without the boobs of no real value.
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  #86  
Old 23.09.2014, 09:51
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Sure, 100% correct. But do you honestly believe that the different Muslim fractions are killing each other because they interpret some details of their book differently? It's the same sort of political power game...
Do I honestly believe...?
Not for a second.
Groups like ISIS are murdering scumbags IMO.
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  #87  
Old 23.09.2014, 10:38
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Do I honestly believe...?
Not for a second.
Groups like ISIS are murdering scumbags IMO.
Exactly. So the "It's all because they are Muslim" arguments are completely misguided. Just like the "Mohammed lived in the 600s, so Muslims are in the middle ages..." one or the "they have different cultural standards" - beheading people is for an average Muslim as culturally acceptable as IRA car bombs are for me as a catholic (and I don't think the issue is that I am not very religious...).
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  #88  
Old 23.09.2014, 10:55
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Five Arab nations are taking part in the first round of airstrikes in Syria: Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates.
Airstrikes are carried out without the consent of the Syrian government.
how many of the airstrikes are being carried out on lands that are actually controlled by the Syrian "government"?

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  #89  
Old 23.09.2014, 13:44
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Exactly. So the "It's all because they are Muslim" arguments are completely misguided. Just like the "Mohammed lived in the 600s, so Muslims are in the middle ages..." one or the "they have different cultural standards" - beheading people is for an average Muslim as culturally acceptable as IRA car bombs are for me as a catholic (and I don't think the issue is that I am not very religious...).
I assume you understand that I'm not arguing this point?

For me, believing one one religion over another makes no difference in how I would judge a person.

At this point I think the US will need to intervene in order to get rid of IS. However I also think that if the US and Britain didn't invade Iraq the second time around, there wouldn't be an IS. They have filled the void left by the demise of Saddam, who was himself a nasty peice of work.
What happens after the US led coalition (hopefully) defeat IS in the region is anybodys guess.
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  #90  
Old 23.09.2014, 13:57
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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At this point I think the US will need to intervene in order to get rid of IS.
But why the US? Aren't they the bad guys?
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  #91  
Old 23.09.2014, 14:09
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

http://youtu.be/rZKqxxoUoYs

what an impressive young woman one of them is- easy to pick the 'right' one.
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  #92  
Old 23.09.2014, 14:18
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the UAE?
Apart from Saudi, all are countries with a lot to lose if the terrorists decide to turn their attentions on them. For a long time now Qatar has been punching way above its weight, supporting coups, meddling in regional affairs, using Al Jazeera to smear their opponents (strangely it never criticises members of the El Thani dynasty ), bribing FIFA officials (probably not that hard eh?) etc..

If ever there was a country with a Napoleon complex, its Qatar
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  #93  
Old 23.09.2014, 16:06
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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But why the US? Aren't they the bad guys?
The reason I mentioned the US in getting involved is because the existence of IS is in a large part due to American foreign policy-Invading Iraq on the pretence of them having chemical weapons and removing a nasty but comparatively stable dictator.
Other reasons could be that Americans are being executed by IS and America has the capability to do something about IS. But having the capability to take military action should not be reason enough alone.

I didn't agree with the US invading Iraq and I think Bush junior has a lot to answer for. Iraq is a complete mess compared to how it was and something should be done about it. And for me, getting rid of IS would go some way towards making amends.
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  #94  
Old 23.09.2014, 16:32
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Exactly. So the "It's all because they are Muslim" arguments are completely misguided. Just like the "Mohammed lived in the 600s, so Muslims are in the middle ages..." one or the "they have different cultural standards" - beheading people is for an average Muslim as culturally acceptable as IRA car bombs are for me as a catholic (and I don't think the issue is that I am not very religious...).
Yes, good point. We've got short memories about what our own people have done on our doorsteps. A typical IRA tactic was the 'proxy bomb'; kidnap a guy's family, strap him into a truck with a bomb, and force him to drive it to a security base where it would be detonated. Is that worse than beheading? Is it done for any other reason than terror and publicity?
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  #95  
Old 23.09.2014, 16:51
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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The reason I mentioned the US in getting involved is because the existence of IS is in a large part due to American foreign policy-Invading Iraq on the pretence of them having chemical weapons and removing a nasty but comparatively stable dictator.
Other reasons could be that Americans are being executed by IS and America has the capability to do something about IS. But having the capability to take military action should not be reason enough alone.

I didn't agree with the US invading Iraq and I think Bush junior has a lot to answer for. Iraq is a complete mess compared to how it was and something should be done about it. And for me, getting rid of IS would go some way towards making amends.
ISIS, or at least the Sunni factions that existed before it became ISIS, long predate the US invasion of Iraq in 2003, and will live on long after the current bombing campagins in Iraq and Syria. the destabilization of Iraq after 2003 made it easier for groups like ISIS to develop, that goes without saying, but they already existed in 2003 thanks in large part to Saudi and other local funding and have grown as a direct result of that same funding.

or else maybe it's just a coincidence that Iraq and Syria just happen to be two of the very few countries in the region with Shia regimes and/or Shia majority populations.
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  #96  
Old 23.09.2014, 16:58
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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The reason I mentioned the US in getting involved is because the existence of IS is in a large part due to American foreign policy-Invading Iraq on the pretence of them having chemical weapons and removing a nasty but comparatively stable dictator.
Other reasons could be that Americans are being executed by IS and America has the capability to do something about IS. But having the capability to take military action should not be reason enough alone.

I didn't agree with the US invading Iraq and I think Bush junior has a lot to answer for. Iraq is a complete mess compared to how it was and something should be done about it. And for me, getting rid of IS would go some way towards making amends.

No, America is not responsible for ISIS. Those people do what they do because of their genetic dispositions and their belief systems. I don't even think the US should do much about this, and let the region determine their own course. Perhaps America is the only country with a backbone to do something about this. But instead of doing too much about this, we really should just walk the Arab countries through the motions of doing it themselves.

Perhaps Obama's unstable mind has finally realized that this should not be primarily a US fight. Turkey should really be doing something, but is not and making back door deals with ISIS instead. The Syrians they are proposing to arm and train will eventually turn against America. Israel is the only real ally we have in the region, and the Kurds are the only proven partner we can rely on. Should they threaten Israel or our interests in Irbil, then yes we should have Israel's back and protect our interests.

As for terrorists; ok, target practice exercises and joint special operations exercises is good readiness training.

If we fix this for them, that dog will return to its vomit. That is the problem with these co-dependent relationships. I think they just have to get sick of fighting until they don't want to anymore. It is high time that region gets off the crack they have been smoking. At some point, we should just to let them sink or swim.
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Old 23.09.2014, 17:03
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Yes, good point. We've got short memories about what our own people have done on our doorsteps. A typical IRA tactic was the 'proxy bomb'; kidnap a guy's family, strap him into a truck with a bomb, and force him to drive it to a security base where it would be detonated. Is that worse than beheading? Is it done for any other reason than terror and publicity?
I'm no fan of the IRA tactics at all and I don't know any irish people that have forgotten about them blowing people up.
In relation to why it was done; ultimately they wanted Northern Ireland to no longer be part of the UK. After many years of people being murdered, most IRA people realised they got as far as they could with their terror campaign and there is now a peace in NI, for the most part.

The issue of why the IRA started bombing is a complicated one and probably off topic for this thread.
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  #98  
Old 23.09.2014, 17:15
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

Phos,
I really have to disagree with you.
If the USA did not invade Iraq (along with Britian) there would be a lesser chance of IS being the force they are today.

There would still be lots of A-holes there as there are in many places but mentioning genetic dispositions is total nonsense.

In relation to belief systems, do you think it is acceptable for a head of state to invade another country because he thinks God wants him to do that?
I ask because Bush jnr says just that; http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

To temper this criticism I would add that I disagree with previous american foreign policy. I would still rather a world with Bush jnr than IS any day.
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Old 23.09.2014, 17:30
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

You can't really back-seat drive history. Some say that had we armed the Syrian rebels, ISIS would not exist. But the arming and support could have as well gone to ISIS in any event.

I agree that GWB and the Neocons stirred a lot of things up. But they are not rational reasons for making even more blundering foreign policy decisions today. I think the US spent ample time and resources so the Iraqis can run it on their own. I think that was enough. The Iraqi inability to take it from there is their failing alone.

Good thing Obama has very little time left. I just hope the next president washes his/her hands of the whole thing and resets with a clean approach.
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Old 23.09.2014, 17:51
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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You can't really back-seat drive history. Some say that had we armed the Syrian rebels, ISIS would not exist. But the arming and support could have as well gone to ISIS in any event.

I agree that GWB and the Neocons stirred a lot of things up. But they are not rational reasons for making even more blundering foreign policy decisions today. I think the US spent ample time and resources so the Iraqis can run it on their own. I think that was enough. The Iraqi inability to take it from there is their failing alone.

Good thing Obama has very little time left. I just hope the next president washes his/her hands of the whole thing and resets with a clean approach.
+100

at the risk of beating the same drum over and over, Saudi, Qatari and other local funding of Sunni extremism in Iraq and Syria has much, much more to do with the ISIS problem than anything the US did (other than the fact that the US has repeatedly turned a blind eye to the funding of Sunni extremism by its "allies"). on the flip side, as much as Bush and Obama like to take credit for shutting down Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, it cannot possibly be coincidence that Al Qaeda really started to weaken only after it was dumb enough to carry out terrorist attacks against westerners within Saudi borders, which forced the Saudi regime to temper its financial and other support and in some cases brutally suppress the organization.
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