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  #101  
Old 23.09.2014, 18:13
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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...Perhaps Obama's unstable mind has finally realized that this should not be primarily a US fight. Turkey should really be doing something, but is not and making back door deals with ISIS instead. The Syrians they are proposing to arm and train will eventually turn against America. Israel is the only real ally we have in the region, and the Kurds are the only proven partner we can rely on. Should they threaten Israel or our interests in Irbil, then yes we should have Israel's back and protect our interests.
Turkey cannot interfere on military terms; the government is against it and the population is against it. The outcome of such an action is also highly uncertain in such a volatile region.
Turkey should stop supporting one group or another there and continue providing humanitarian aid/shelter to people fleeing. It has sofar accepted over one million Syrian refugees despite its own financial problems.
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  #102  
Old 24.09.2014, 03:19
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Why does the Arab World act against ISIS and act in conjunction with the USA

Why does the Arab World act against ISIS and act in conjunction with the USA?

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/23/op...html?hpt=hp_c1


because the Arab states realize that ISIS is a threat, a threat both politically and to the live style of People


Secularism is the basis of both Syria and Iraq. If this falls the way would be free for the 8th and 9th Army Corps of Turkey to move forward. However, the Erdogan regime has gone very far in its attempt to improve the its (the one of the Turkish Republic) relationship with the Arab World.


************************************************** ***********************


http://www.khaleejtimes.com/kt-artic...ion=middleeast




King Abdullah II just waited for WashingtonDC approval to get the Royal Jordanian Air Force into full action

Last edited by Ace1; 24.09.2014 at 09:46. Reason: Moving title into post after merging threads
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  #103  
Old 24.09.2014, 08:05
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Re: Why does the Arab World act against ISIS and act in conjunction with the USA

As a Arab Iraqi woman I want nothing more than the complete destruction of ISIS. The stories we hear from relatives or friends in Iraq are extremely shocking and painful. Isis has taken advantage of the political situation in Iraq, Maliki and his thugs have isolated and refused to pay pensions to Sunni army personnel ( from the Ba'ath regime) Isis has capitalized on that. Maliki has also refused to reconcile with them and integrating them back into the current army.

Isis on the other hand pays them monthly wages and promises them that the Shia will pay dearly for what they have done after the American invasion.

This secular ideology is an extremely painful and sad development. I am of mixed parents, as is many Iraqis and it's extremely sad for me to see groups on either spectrum calling for the killing of the other group. We never heard any Sunni or Shia talk growing up, till today I don't really know the difference and don't care to. Religion was something never talked about. What hurts is Iraq is neither Saudi nor Iran. We are not zealous nor fanatics.

Isis must be destroyed and the only way it can be completely wiped out is by reconciling with the Sunnis and allowing them back into the Iraqi army.if that is done Isis will be wiped out, since all the qualified army personnel are mostly based in Mosul. Oh and Saudi and Iran need to leave us alone and fight one another on their lands not in Iraq or Syria!
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  #104  
Old 24.09.2014, 08:30
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

International law prohibits using force on the territory of another country without authorization from the United Nations, except for self-defense.

Samantha Power officially informed Ban Ki-moon of the legal justification of using force in a letter, asserting that the airstrikes had been done in Syria without seeking the permission of the Syrian government or the UN --- in defence of Iraq. What self-defence has to do with it?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/24/us...egal.html?_r=1

By the way, Syria is the seventh Muslim country being bombed by the Nobel peace prize winner Obama.
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  #105  
Old 24.09.2014, 09:34
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Re: Why does the Arab World act against ISIS and act in conjunction with the USA

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As a Arab Iraqi woman I want nothing more than the complete destruction of ISIS. The stories we hear from relatives or friends in Iraq are extremely shocking and painful. Isis has taken advantage of the political situation in Iraq, Maliki and his thugs have isolated and refused to pay pensions to Sunni army personnel ( from the Ba'ath regime) Isis has capitalized on that. Maliki has also refused to reconcile with them and integrating them back into the current army.

Isis on the other hand pays them monthly wages and promises them that the Shia will pay dearly for what they have done after the American invasion.

This secular ideology is an extremely painful and sad development. I am of mixed parents, as is many Iraqis and it's extremely sad for me to see groups on either spectrum calling for the killing of the other group. We never heard any Sunni or Shia talk growing up, till today I don't really know the difference and don't care to. Religion was something never talked about. What hurts is Iraq is neither Saudi nor Iran. We are not zealous nor fanatics.

Isis must be destroyed and the only way it can be completely wiped out is by reconciling with the Sunnis and allowing them back into the Iraqi army.if that is done Isis will be wiped out, since all the qualified army personnel are mostly based in Mosul. Oh and Saudi and Iran need to leave us alone and fight one another on their lands not in Iraq or Syria!

Could not agree more
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  #106  
Old 24.09.2014, 11:13
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Re: Why does the Arab World act against ISIS and act in conjunction with the USA

Assad tacitly approves of the bombing. Syrian and Iranian government were notified. Syrian government expressed support for International effort to fight terrorism.



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As a Arab Iraqi woman I want nothing more than the complete destruction of ISIS.
....
Isis must be destroyed and the only way it can be completely wiped out is by reconciling with the Sunnis and allowing them back into the Iraqi army.if that is done Isis will be wiped out, since all the qualified army personnel are mostly based in Mosul. Oh and Saudi and Iran need to leave us alone and fight one another on their lands not in Iraq or Syria!
Agreed. Can the Iraqis do this themselves? What do you think the role of the US and coalition is in this process?
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  #107  
Old 24.09.2014, 11:36
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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The Iraqi inability to take it from there is their failing alone.
Primarily their, if not 'their alone'. I think it is a fair critic that US could have done a bit more. But in hindsight anything that fails can be criticized.
Regards
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  #108  
Old 24.09.2014, 11:39
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Re: Islamic State

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By the way, Syria is the seventh Muslim country being bombed by the Nobel peace prize winner Obama.
Obama is the worlds first Ironic President... staring in Saturday Night Live skits whilst simultaneously drone-bombing innocent civilians in Pakistan, Yemen etc..

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Assad tacitly approves of the bombing. Syrian and Iranian government were notified. Syrian government expressed support for International effort to fight terrorism.
That's quite a bold leap of logic, I can't imagine any country inviting its sovereignty to be breached, least of all a country with the ability to do the job themselves. The best thing the US, Iran, Saudi, GCC etc.. can do is 'butt out' of Syria and allow them to chart their own destiny, and if that's a continuation of the Assad regime, then so be it. Having seen the result of Libya and Iraq I would choose stability and order over anarchy, chaos and civil war. Assad has outfoxed those that have tried to overthrown him with a mixture of guile and an increasing realization by his own people that the alternative to him is not even worth considering.
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  #109  
Old 24.09.2014, 11:46
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Primarily their, if not 'their alone'. I think it is a fair critic that US could have done a bit more. But in hindsight anything that fails can be criticized.
Regards
Sure, that is a valid perspective. But it can also be characterized like a co-dependent relationship; for example, between an addict and an enabler. Sometimes, in such relationships, doing "more" is doing worse.

It comes down to will power. When Captain America comes on and promises to do something, it diminishes the ability of the co-dependent to think and act for themselves. At some point, the adult is no longer a teenager and needs to learn to fend for itself.

I don't think the US needs to act from a guilt trip in this toxic relationship.



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That's quite a bold leap of logic, I can't imagine any country inviting its sovereignty to be breached, least of all a country with the ability to do the job themselves. The best thing the US, Iran, Saudi, GCC etc.. can do is 'butt out' of Syria and allow them to chart their own destiny, and if that's a continuation of the Assad regime, then so be it. Having seen the result of Libya and Iraq I would choose stability and order over anarchy, chaos and civil war. Assad has outfoxed those that have tried to overthrown him with a mixture of guile and an increasing realization by his own people that the alternative to him is not even worth considering.

I also don't like the precedence of any country jumping into any country either. In this case, it even opens the door for Russia to come into Syria. But as a response to the airstrike, Syria did NOT condemn. Instead, they release a statement saying they support International efforts to fight Jihadism.

The US, in the meantime, was not focusing on ISIS. They took the opportunity to bomb Khorasan, an al Qaeda offshoot.

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  #110  
Old 24.09.2014, 11:59
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Re: Islamic State

What a mess. The West's brave contribution to international diplomacy is precision bombing from the comforts of a concrete bunker well out of range in Nevada.

Remember back to schoolyard politics? You're my friend, you're not my best friend any more ....

And then we wonder why thousands of homeless refugees want to escape the war zone and flee to our utopian landscape?

I refer to my earlier post about how the West have misidentified the solutions to the problem, following anti-dictator populism to nurture their own self interests and putting the Middle East squarely back into the Middle Ages.
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  #111  
Old 24.09.2014, 15:14
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Re: Why does the Arab World act against ISIS and act in conjunction with the USA

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Assad tacitly approves of the bombing. Syrian and Iranian government were notified. Syrian government expressed support for International effort to fight terrorism.





Agreed. Can the Iraqis do this themselves? What do you think the role of the US and coalition is in this process?
I think what got us into this mess was the US invasion which was based on lies. Do I think Iraqis can do it themselves. Of course, given that Sunnis rejoin the army. Iraq currently has no proper army , we have militias and unqualified thugs with personal agendas. The initial mistake was dissolving the Iraqi army. Our second issue is the continuous meddling in our affairs.since the invasion of Kuwait Iraq has been hammered by bombings and sanctions. The final invasion brought America incorporated in , with their agendas taking huge pieces of Iraq's wealth. Our neighbors have facilitated both the training and movement of fighters in and out of Iraq ensuring Iraq will always be destabilized.
When America came in it brought with it Iraqis that have been indoctrinated by Iran's religious teachings. I don't even want to refer to them as Iraqis as most of them have only instigated sectarian violence and robbed the country.

So to answer your question:
We are Iraqis, we are more than capable of managing Isis given the west removes the scum it brought to rule. With that being said, based on the past every time the west has come to "rescue" it has managed to create more long term problems. So maybe for once, the west can remove obstacles and allow the people to solve it. Iraqis did not create Isis , and if Iraqis can catch their breath and have a proper army we can wipe them out. Don't judge the Iraqi army based on what you see today, these are militias. However let me ask you this
Don't you think if Isis gains hold now YOU will be next? Granted its busy in Iraq and Syria now, however once it kills all the moderates and bring up a new generation of zombies don't you think you will be next?

Why would you want to help Isis? By sitting this fight out you only ensure the killing of all moderates. Every educated Arab, every Christian every Arab that calls for reasoning versus extremism.

So it's every countrys duty to eradicate any form of extremism being Muslim, Christian or Jewish, or any other group that strips humans from their humanity and considers killing others a pass to heaven.

Btw I have everything against governments, religious fanatics and nothing against individuals. When I mention America or Iran I mean the government not the people.
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  #112  
Old 24.09.2014, 16:53
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Re: Why does the Arab World act against ISIS and act in conjunction with the USA

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The final invasion brought America incorporated in , with their agendas taking huge pieces of Iraq's wealth. Our neighbors have facilitated both the training and movement of fighters in and out of Iraq ensuring Iraq will always be destabilized.
America took huge pieces of Iraq's wealth? Which and how?


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When America came in it brought with it Iraqis that have been indoctrinated by Iran's religious teachings. I don't even want to refer to them as Iraqis as most of them have only instigated sectarian violence and robbed the country.
You mean the Shiites? Are they not Iraqis?


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Iraqis did not create Isis , and if Iraqis can catch their breath and have a proper army we can wipe them out. Don't judge the Iraqi army based on what you see today, these are militias. However let me ask you this
Wasn't ISIS created by Iraqis? AQI?


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Don't you think if Isis gains hold now YOU will be next? Granted its busy in Iraq and Syria now, however once it kills all the moderates and bring up a new generation of zombies don't you think you will be next?
ISIS is shocking and disgusting, but they are not feared. At the moment, their threats against the West are not that credible. Should it rise to the occasion, I'm confident the West will take its gloves off and deal with the threat when it becomes real, even if we have to carpet bomb them. There is no reason for us to act on the basis of fear. At the moment, it looks like bait. We need to act on the basis of clear thinking.


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Why would you want to help Isis? By sitting this fight out you only ensure the killing of all moderates. Every educated Arab, every Christian every Arab that calls for reasoning versus extremism.

So it's every countrys duty to eradicate any form of extremism being Muslim, Christian or Jewish, or any other group that strips humans from their humanity and considers killing others a pass to heaven.
I think their methods and tactics are despicable and should be eradicated in the modern world. The human race has larger challenges to deal with that requires real cooperation. A group like this will prevent us from dealing with more important issues. Ebola, for example.

But despite their tactics, they've demonstrated something substantial in Mosul and Raqqa that we really should pay attention to. There is order and quiet. The city functions with an Islamic based order. That is needed by ordinary people. It doesn't make sense to throw the whole baby out with the bathwater. It would be good to retain some of that peace. The solution for this should provide a better alternative to Iraqi life than what ISIS have managed to place. Replacing that with bombs and battles will not work, and will only prove that ISIS is a better alternative what anyone else is offering. Unfortunately, America will not be able to offer that. That is something only Iraqis can do for themselves.
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  #113  
Old 24.09.2014, 17:02
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Re: Why does the Arab World act against ISIS and act in conjunction with the USA

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I think what got us into this mess was the US invasion which was based on lies. Do I think Iraqis can do it themselves. Of course, given that Sunnis rejoin the army. Iraq currently has no proper army , we have militias and unqualified thugs with personal agendas. The initial mistake was dissolving the Iraqi army. Our second issue is the continuous meddling in our affairs.since the invasion of Kuwait Iraq has been hammered by bombings and sanctions. The final invasion brought America incorporated in , with their agendas taking huge pieces of Iraq's wealth. Our neighbors have facilitated both the training and movement of fighters in and out of Iraq ensuring Iraq will always be destabilized.
When America came in it brought with it Iraqis that have been indoctrinated by Iran's religious teachings. I don't even want to refer to them as Iraqis as most of them have only instigated sectarian violence and robbed the country.

So to answer your question:
We are Iraqis, we are more than capable of managing Isis given the west removes the scum it brought to rule. With that being said, based on the past every time the west has come to "rescue" it has managed to create more long term problems. So maybe for once, the west can remove obstacles and allow the people to solve it. Iraqis did not create Isis , and if Iraqis can catch their breath and have a proper army we can wipe them out. Don't judge the Iraqi army based on what you see today, these are militias. However let me ask you this
Don't you think if Isis gains hold now YOU will be next? Granted its busy in Iraq and Syria now, however once it kills all the moderates and bring up a new generation of zombies don't you think you will be next?

Why would you want to help Isis? By sitting this fight out you only ensure the killing of all moderates. Every educated Arab, every Christian every Arab that calls for reasoning versus extremism.

So it's every countrys duty to eradicate any form of extremism being Muslim, Christian or Jewish, or any other group that strips humans from their humanity and considers killing others a pass to heaven.

Btw I have everything against governments, religious fanatics and nothing against individuals. When I mention America or Iran I mean the government not the people.
About " if Iraqis can catch their breath and have a proper army we can wipe them out" Unfortunately the Iraqi army ran away from a much smaller ISIS invasion, link. I hope they will recover from this failure but it is hard to see how?
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  #114  
Old 24.09.2014, 17:11
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Re: Why does the Arab World act against ISIS and act in conjunction with the USA

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About " if Iraqis can catch their breath and have a proper army we can wipe them out" Unfortunately the Iraqi army ran away from a much smaller ISIS invasion, link. I hope they will recover from this failure but it is hard to see how?
As the poster said, the upper echelons of the army seem to be composed of shias with dotted reporting lines to Iran. ISIS is thus able to whip up support from Sunni heartlands and tribes based on this perceived injustice.

I've written it before, the biggest mistake the Americans made immediately after the fall of Saddam was to completely shut out the Baathists, the very people who knew how to run a country.
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Old 24.09.2014, 17:37
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Re: Why does the Arab World act against ISIS and act in conjunction with the USA

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As the poster said, the upper echelons of the army seem to be composed of shias with dotted reporting lines to Iran. ISIS is thus able to whip up support from Sunni heartlands and tribes based on this perceived injustice.

I've written it before, the biggest mistake the Americans made immediately after the fall of Saddam was to completely shut out the Baathists, the very people who knew how to run a country.
About "the biggest mistake the Americans made immediately after the fall of Saddam was to completely shut out the Baathists" No, the biggest mistake the Americans made was to fire the army so putting a lot of unhappy and unpaid trained soldiers on the streets to make mischief. Of course, this was not their only mistake.
They should have kept the soldiers on, given them a pay rise and found useful work for them well away from the cities. Of course hindsight is not very useful

Forgot to say the poster clearly stated "The initial mistake was dissolving the Iraqi army. "
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  #116  
Old 24.09.2014, 17:55
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Re: Why does the Arab World act against ISIS and act in conjunction with the USA

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America took huge pieces of Iraq's wealth? Which and how?




You mean the Shiites? Are they not Iraqis?




Wasn't ISIS created by Iraqis? AQI?




ISIS is shocking and disgusting, but they are not feared. At the moment, their threats against the West are not that credible. Should it rise to the occasion, I'm confident the West will take its gloves off and deal with the threat when it becomes real, even if we have to carpet bomb them. There is no reason for us to act on the basis of fear. At the moment, it looks like bait. We need to act on the basis of clear thinking.




I think their methods and tactics are despicable and should be eradicated in the modern world. The human race has larger challenges to deal with that requires real cooperation. A group like this will prevent us from dealing with more important issues. Ebola, for example.

But despite their tactics, they've demonstrated something substantial in Mosul and Raqqa that we really should pay attention to. There is order and quiet. The city functions with an Islamic based order. That is needed by ordinary people. It doesn't make sense to throw the whole baby out with the bathwater. It would be good to retain some of that peace. The solution for this should provide a better alternative to Iraqi life than what ISIS have managed to place. Replacing that with bombs and battles will not work, and will only prove that ISIS is a better alternative what anyone else is offering. Unfortunately, America will not be able to offer that. That is something only Iraqis can do for themselves.
Again I tick all your points in Green. Should the west interfere militarily? No. Are they responsible for the current mess? Depends on how far back in history you want to go and what key events you want to highlight. Was Iraq better off with Saddam at the helm? Is Syria better off with Assad at the helm (There is some parallel between the two regimes)?

Regards
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  #117  
Old 24.09.2014, 20:59
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Death toll:

Ukraine: 3-4k
Syria: 100k

ISIS is a little more than a bunch of stoners...
Yes, but the deaths in the Ukraine are Europeans.



This sounds cynic, but it's how the world works unfortunately. The IS threat is only getting so much media attention since they started to slaughter Westerners. Look at when this thread was started and what was the reason for that. IS started to call themselves a state back in June and were lingering around much earlier, but nobody had time for that - it was World Cup.

The western world forgets certain developments very quickly if it doesn't affect them any more. How fast has the Palestine-Israel conflict moved out of focus? How fast were Assad and his chemical weapons forgotten? The situation in Egypt? Or the situation in Iraq after the U.S. retreated? Or Afghanistan? Or the situation in Lybia? Or the Pirates of Somalia(TM)? Or the earth quake victims of Haiti? Depending on how this continues it will be exactly the same with IS as well as with the Ebola outbreak. Many of the scarce trained health care professionals in the Ebola affected countries faded away because they didn't know or didn't expect what they are dealing with. The media focus and the international specialists will go on to other adventures, but the people who live there will still be there - just with even worse health care infrastructure.

The problem is that these issues which are shifting in and out of media attention are often not singular incidents happening by chance. It is the consequence of decades and sometimes even centuries of destructive policies by the local elite and western politics. Not because of evilness or bad intent, but because of this short-term memory of the western world, selfishness, misunderstanding of the local situation and an idiotic "my enemy's enemy is my friend"-policy, resulting in a viscous cycle in which during each crisis the next threat to the region is already bred as part of a shaky short time solution.



We are living a very unfunny, global remake of "Groundhog Day".
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  #118  
Old 24.09.2014, 21:29
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Re: Islamic State

A French tourist who was abducted in Algeria last weekend has apparently been beheaded by ISIS militants.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...linked-jihadis
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Old 24.09.2014, 21:35
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Yes, but the deaths in the Ukraine are Europeans.



This sounds cynic, but it's how the world works unfortunately. The IS threat is only getting so much media attention since they started to slaughter Westerners. Look at when this thread was started and what was the reason for that. IS started to call themselves a state back in June and were lingering around much earlier, but nobody had time for that - it was World Cup.

The western world forgets certain developments very quickly if it doesn't affect them any more. How fast has the Palestine-Israel conflict moved out of focus? How fast were Assad and his chemical weapons forgotten? The situation in Egypt? Or the situation in Iraq after the U.S. retreated? Or Afghanistan? Or the situation in Lybia? Or the Pirates of Somalia(TM)? Or the earth quake victims of Haiti? Depending on how this continues it will be exactly the same with IS as well as with the Ebola outbreak. Many of the scarce trained health care professionals in the Ebola affected countries faded away because they didn't know or didn't expect what they are dealing with. The media focus and the international specialists will go on to other adventures, but the people who live there will still be there - just with even worse health care infrastructure.

The problem is that these issues which are shifting in and out of media attention are often not singular incidents happening by chance. It is the consequence of decades and sometimes even centuries of destructive policies by the local elite and western politics. Not because of evilness or bad intent, but because of this short-term memory of the western world, selfishness, misunderstanding of the local situation and an idiotic "my enemy's enemy is my friend"-policy, resulting in a viscous cycle in which during each crisis the next threat to the region is already bred as part of a shaky short time solution.



We are living a very unfunny, global remake of "Groundhog Day".
My only question to this is "how important are the Western media here?".
I mean "should we measure everything by column inches in the Western media? are there other media or other criteria we should use?

About "my enemy's enemy is my friend"-policy - is this a reasonable policy? or a policy that we have no good alternative to propose? Or a last desperate decision?

Obama does not have to face another Presidential election! So what is his motivation?
  • To leave a legacy as a President who achieved peace in many areas?
  • To create enough interest that he will be a successful author and join the list of essential and expensive presentation presenters
  • To prepare his CV for the next role?
  • To make life difficult for the next President who likely will not be from the same political party
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Old 24.09.2014, 22:12
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Obama does not have to face another Presidential election! So what is his motivation?
  • To leave a legacy as a President who achieved peace in many areas?
  • To create enough interest that he will be a successful author and join the list of essential and expensive presentation presenters
  • To prepare his CV for the next role?
  • To make life difficult for the next President who likely will not be from the same political party
Any chance he might just want to fix a problem? Bah, of course not. What was I thinking.
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