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  #121  
Old 24.09.2014, 22:44
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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My only question to this is "how important are the Western media here?".
I mean "should we measure everything by column inches in the Western media? are there other media or other criteria we should use?
The media play a very important role. It's for a reason they're called the fourth power. But it's a fair question. How do we know they're important? Well, I think the biggest give-away is the fact that the policy makers seem to think that it is important. Why was the U.S. government trying to push the embedded journalists during the last Iraqi war? Because they knew that the support of the U.S. public was crucial to keep the war going. The influence of pictures can not be overestimated:





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About "my enemy's enemy is my friend"-policy - is this a reasonable policy? or a policy that we have no good alternative to propose? Or a last desperate decision?
It depends. Was it worth providing communist Russia with weapons to fight the Nazis? Was it worth it to provide the Mujahideen with weapons in Afghanistan? Or to support Augusto Pinochet overthrowing Salvdor Allende? And are these all the same thing? I think that different crisis need different measures. But the worst possible reaction I could imagine as a standard procedure is "Oh we have a crisis. Let's give this dodgy man with the tousled beard and the unsteady eyes some Stinger missiles and CIA training".

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Obama does not have to face another Presidential election! So what is his motivation?
  • To leave a legacy as a President who achieved peace in many areas?
  • To create enough interest that he will be a successful author and join the list of essential and expensive presentation presenters
  • To prepare his CV for the next role?
  • To make life difficult for the next President who likely will not be from the same political party
Probably all of this. He certainly wants to be remembered as one of the great presidents and not as one that made a lot of mistakes and started to paint strange dog pictures when he got retired.

But I don't think that any of these issues, which are for sure important to him personally, is the driving force behind the day-to-day decision that have to be made. U.S. presidents have a lot of power, but they can not do whatever they want. There is a lot of pressure of the own party and the rest of political establishment as well, not to mention the media, the military, the security services, the allies and the industry. All of them have power as well and all of them have their own agenda. Even if he woke up tomorrow and decided that communism and demilitarization was the way to go, what actual changes could he enforce without being isolated and actually losing power to change even small things in the U.S?

It's not about the decisions of a single person, it's about the collective world view and attitude of western societies and the solutions to crisis they come up with time after time again.
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  #122  
Old 24.09.2014, 23:52
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Turkey cannot interfere on military terms; the government is against it and the population is against it. The outcome of such an action is also highly uncertain in such a volatile region.
Turkey should stop supporting one group or another there and continue providing humanitarian aid/shelter to people fleeing. It has so far accepted over one million Syrian refugees despite its own financial problems.
About "It has so far accepted over one million Syrian refugees despite its own financial problems." Truly excellent.

About "Turkey cannot interfere on military terms" Turkey's foreign policy has been a disaster. The "zero problems with neighbors" policy soon revealed itself to be a naive approach.

Turkey developed increasingly warm ties with rogue states such as Iran, Syria, and Sudan while curtailing its once cordial relations with Israel and using stronger rhetoric against the United States and Europe.
Turkey’s embrace of religiously conservative political movements has run afoul of several Persian Gulf states and now Egypt, contributing to its political isolation.
Turkey currently does not have an ambassador in Syria, Egypt or Israel. Moreover, Ankara’s relations with the Gulf States are strained, owing to the A.K.P.’s support of the Muslim Brotherhood. And diplomatic ties with Iraq are near non-existent after Turkey opted to side with the Kurdistan Regional Government and facilitate the export of Kurdish oil without Baghdad’s approval.

Turkey’s efforts to mediate the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have failed because it is no longer seen as a neutral party.

Turkey, when attacked by Syrian artillery fire in August 2012, rushed to NATO and asked for antimissile protection. NATO granted the request, and Patriot missile batteries have been deployed since January 2013. The deployment was renewed for the year 2014.

However, when working on setting up its own missile defense system, the Turkish government announced off-the-cuff that it was likely to choose a Chinese system.
This announcement represents a double blow for Turkey’s NATO allies. It means that, if the Chinese deal is confirmed, Turkey would operate a “stand-alone” missile system that would never be interoperable with NATO’s collective missile defenses.
It also means that Turkey would fail to contribute to the upgrading of NATO’s collective defense, a key commitment of the 2012 NATO summit in Chicago and hence a Turkish commitment as well. Purchasing the Chinese system would in fact represent a negative contribution.

Then there is the nonsense in 2013, Turkey twice made public appeals to Russia and China to be accepted as a full member of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO). So far as is known SCO never replied.

Last edited by marton; 24.09.2014 at 23:53. Reason: spelling
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  #123  
Old 25.09.2014, 00:18
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Re: Islamic State

Leadership pays off in so many tangible and intagible ways. Oftentimes, when asked why a leader leads, the answer is simply because they can when nobody else can. It has takes on the most responsibility, pays the highest cost, but also gets the lion's share. That US is a country of leaders. This character shows through in its decisions and actions.
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  #124  
Old 25.09.2014, 03:00
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Re: Why does the Arab World act against ISIS and act in conjunction with the USA

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the USA


??



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The final invasion brought America incorporated in , with their agendas taking huge pieces of Iraq's wealth. Our neighbors have facilitated both the training and movement of fighters in and out of Iraq ensuring Iraq will always be destabilized.




America took huge pieces of Iraq's wealth? Which and how?


The USA wanted to get economic gains, but failed.




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When America came in it brought with it Iraqis that have been indoctrinated by Iran's religious teachings. I don't even want to refer to them as Iraqis as most of them have only instigated sectarian violence and robbed the country.




You mean the Shiites? Are they not Iraqis?


Sure, but most Iraqi Shi'ites are Secularists. The USA however supported Shi'ite religious zealots for quite some time




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Iraqis did not create Isis , and if Iraqis can catch their breath and have a proper army we can wipe them out. Don't judge the Iraqi army based on what you see today, these are militias. However let me ask you this




Wasn't ISIS created by Iraqis? AQI?


NO

but by Saudi Arabians





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Don't you think if Isis gains hold now YOU will be next? Granted its busy in Iraq and Syria now, however once it kills all the moderates and bring up a new generation of zombies don't you think you will be next?




ISIS is shocking and disgusting, but they are not feared. At the moment, their threats against the West are not that credible. Should it rise to the occasion, I'm confident the West will take its gloves off and deal with the threat when it becomes real, even if we have to carpet bomb them. There is no reason for us to act on the basis of fear. At the moment, it looks like bait. We need to act on the basis of clear thinking.


They terrorize the areas where they rule- They ARE feared




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Why would you want to help Isis? By sitting this fight out you only ensure the killing of all moderates. Every educated Arab, every Christian every Arab that calls for reasoning versus extremism.

So it's every countrys duty to eradicate any form of extremism being Muslim, Christian or Jewish, or any other group that strips humans from their humanity and considers killing others a pass to heaven.





I think their methods and tactics are despicable and should be eradicated in the modern world. The human race has larger challenges to deal with that requires real cooperation. A group like this will prevent us from dealing with more important issues. Ebola, for example.

But despite their tactics, they've demonstrated something substantial in Mosul and Raqqa that we really should pay attention to. There is order and quiet. The city functions with an Islamic based order. That is needed by ordinary people. It doesn't make sense to throw the whole baby out with the bathwater. It would be good to retain some of that peace. The solution for this should provide a better alternative to Iraqi life than what ISIS have managed to place. Replacing that with bombs and battles will not work, and will only prove that ISIS is a better alternative what anyone else is offering. Unfortunately, America will not be able to offer that. That is something only Iraqis can do for themselves.


Already US Ambassador Joseph Kennedy in messages from London to FDR did praise the ORDER AND QUIET established by the Leader of the German Empire and Imperial Chancellor. Such an order is NOT needed by ordinary people, neither in the Europe of the 1930ies nor in the Arab World now




















.[/QUOTE]
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  #125  
Old 25.09.2014, 03:16
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Re: Islamic State

The IS butchers first taunted the US by murdering two Americans in cold blood, in a very public way, then the UK, with their beheading of a Scottish captive. Now, indirectly (through a jihadist group in Algeria linked to them), IS has ensured that France is positioned squarely against them, as well: a French tourist in Algeria has been beheaded by these butchers.
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  #126  
Old 25.09.2014, 04:07
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Re: Islamic State

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The IS butchers first taunted the US by murdering two Americans in cold blood, in a very public way, then the UK, with their beheading of a Scottish captive. Now, indirectly (through a jihadist group in Algeria linked to them), IS has ensured that France is positioned squarely against them, as well: a French tourist in Algeria has been beheaded by these butchers.

Mr Hollande has made it a matter of honour which means that France is now fully in the field
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  #127  
Old 25.09.2014, 07:23
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Re: Islamic State

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Mr Hollande has made it a matter of honour which means that France is now fully in the field
The word 'honour' and Hollande do not belong in the same sentence.
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  #128  
Old 25.09.2014, 10:42
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Re: Why does the Arab World act against ISIS and act in conjunction with the USA

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The USA wanted to get economic gains, but failed.
....
Wasn't ISIS created by Iraqis? AQI?

NO

but by Saudi Arabians

Sensationalism masquerading as intellect. But events are not driven by fanboi Chomsky-esque issues. A large portion of Iraqis today subscribe to the theory that ISIS is a CIA creation. Some even say they are a Jewish invention. This is yet another problem with the mentality of the region. They subscribe to conspiracy theories. Mixing fantasies with reality will cause them to fail to recognize objective reality, and miss true opportunities to take responsibility for their lives.

The US spent about $2 Trillion on Iraq. The Iraqi Army practically handed over much of the military hardware given to them over to ISIS. We can discount idiots who assume the US is after money. The US can make (print) as much money as it needs without Iraq.

These conspiracy theories are just yet another way of copping out of reality, finding something else to blame, so as to avoid taking responsibility. They don't really lead to anything constructive. It helps explain why the people in the region are so ineffective. The reality of lives in Iraq and the Middle East is the net effect of the thinking of its people, bottom line.
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  #129  
Old 25.09.2014, 13:48
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Re: Islamic State executes Scottish aid worker David Haines,

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Turkey cannot interfere on military terms; the government is against it and the population is against it. The outcome of such an action is also highly uncertain in such a volatile region.
Turkey should stop supporting one group or another there and continue providing humanitarian aid/shelter to people fleeing. It has sofar accepted over one million Syrian refugees despite its own financial problems.
About "Turkey cannot interfere on military terms; the government is against it and the population is against it."

If I understood Erdogan's UN speech correctly he said yesterday that Turkey was the only country fighting ISIS. He also offered military support but was quite vague about what and when. He clearly believes he is the leader of Turkey although this is not supported by the constitution, yet!
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  #130  
Old 25.09.2014, 14:38
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Re: Islamic State

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Leadership pays off in so many tangible and intagible ways. Oftentimes, when asked why a leader leads, the answer is simply because they can when nobody else can. It has takes on the most responsibility, pays the highest cost, but also gets the lion's share. That US is a country of leaders. This character shows through in its decisions and actions.
Bull.

The US is self interested, as it always has been. US foreign policy is not altruistic in the slightest, and if you think it is, you are naive of the highest possible order. US 'interventions' have done far more damage to the world then good, and it shows no sign of slowing down.

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The IS butchers first taunted the US by murdering two Americans in cold blood, in a very public way, then the UK, with their beheading of a Scottish captive. Now, indirectly (through a jihadist group in Algeria linked to them), IS has ensured that France is positioned squarely against them, as well: a French tourist in Algeria has been beheaded by these butchers.
The Algerian group weren't part of IS, they were a separate group, who acted int their name but without their sanction.

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Sensationalism masquerading as intellect. But events are not driven by fanboi Chomsky-esque issues. A large portion of Iraqis today subscribe to the theory that ISIS is a CIA creation. Some even say they are a Jewish invention. This is yet another problem with the mentality of the region. They subscribe to conspiracy theories. Mixing fantasies with reality will cause them to fail to recognize objective reality, and miss true opportunities to take responsibility for their lives.

The US spent about $2 Trillion on Iraq. The Iraqi Army practically handed over much of the military hardware given to them over to ISIS. We can discount idiots who assume the US is after money. The US can make (print) as much money as it needs without Iraq.

These conspiracy theories are just yet another way of copping out of reality, finding something else to blame, so as to avoid taking responsibility. They don't really lead to anything constructive. It helps explain why the people in the region are so ineffective. The reality of lives in Iraq and the Middle East is the net effect of the thinking of its people, bottom line.
Another load of utter nonsense and bull.

Now you're making grandiose claims about the mindset of an entire region of people based on what? As the Iraqi lady on here has already said, it is fairly clear that Iraqi's blame their own government, for not being inclusive enough to stop the disillusionment festering that eventually gave critical mass to IS. This nonsense about everyone there blaming the CIA or the jews is just something concocted in the imaginations of the uneducated, unintelligent and stereotyping, nothing more.

$2trillion is something else you've purposefully twisted, in that dystopian mind of yours. The DOD themselves say they spent around $760 billion in the 03-10 war altogether, and even the highest estimates are put around $1.1trillion. The $2 trillion value is what is hypothesized to be spent until the end of 2017. In case you were confused, we haven't even got through 2014 yet. Stop trying to mislead people to support your already-precarious and nonsensical monologues. A huge amount of that $2 trillion isn't even war costs, its interest on the money borrowed to fight the wars.

That's what the destruction effort costs, and the private security efforts, and all the other bullshit that went on. Perhaps if the US Govt had been a little smarter they would have spent more rebuilding the country, rather then creating a haven for IS.

What do you have against the Iraqi people? First you go on and on about how they need to prove that they are against IS by basically getting killed by them, and then you go on about how they're all living in a fantasy, rejecting responsibility and not even trying to be constructive. You end by implying they deserve all the crap that's happened to them, because of their thinking. What one earth is wrong with you? Did an iraqi bully you at school or something?

I only know of one person not grounded in reality, and that is you.

PS, the US cant print as much money as it likes. Inflation, dearest.
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  #131  
Old 25.09.2014, 14:51
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Re: Islamic State

I love seeing people call Phos out on all of the abject nonsense she writes. Gotta love facts.
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  #132  
Old 25.09.2014, 14:59
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Re: Islamic State

@Wollishofener - why do you think IS was created by the Saudis?
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  #133  
Old 25.09.2014, 15:28
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Re: Islamic State

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Bull.

The US is self interested, as it always has been. US foreign policy is not altruistic in the slightest, and if you think it is, you are naive of the highest possible order. US 'interventions' have done far more damage to the world then good, and it shows no sign of slowing down.

....

I only know of one person not grounded in reality, and that is you.

PS, the US cant print as much money as it likes. Inflation, dearest.

Its a huge misconception to expect the US to act out of altruism. Altruism is not a sentiment that is much valued in the US. Of course it acts in its self-interest. Whatever misconceptions you may have about the situation in Iraq, this is something they created and will need to address on their own.
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  #134  
Old 25.09.2014, 15:52
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Re: Why does the Arab World act against ISIS and act in conjunction with the USA

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Sensationalism masquerading as intellect. But events are not driven by fanboi Chomsky-esque issues. A large portion of Iraqis today subscribe to the theory that ISIS is a CIA creation. Some even say they are a Jewish invention. This is yet another problem with the mentality of the region. They subscribe to conspiracy theories. Mixing fantasies with reality will cause them to fail to recognize objective reality, and miss true opportunities to take responsibility for their lives.

The US spent about $2 Trillion on Iraq. The Iraqi Army practically handed over much of the military hardware given to them over to ISIS. We can discount idiots who assume the US is after money. The US can make (print) as much money as it needs without Iraq.

These conspiracy theories are just yet another way of copping out of reality, finding something else to blame, so as to avoid taking responsibility. They don't really lead to anything constructive. It helps explain why the people in the region are so ineffective. The reality of lives in Iraq and the Middle East is the net effect of the thinking of its people, bottom line.
Ok phos , Iraqis deserve to be killed , so do Syrians. And according to your logic all of the Middle East deserves to burn. That's ok. Luckily for us Arabs it's not your call. Can't argue with someone who's hell bent on the fact that Arabs are racist, stupid, genetically hard wired towards violence. It's your opinion. I have no desire to get you to change your opinion or perception. You seem to be guilty of what you accuse Arabs of. I'm sure there are good Arabs and bad Arabs that's the case everywhere in the world. As an Arab I don't blame the Jews for Isis. Actually blame isn't the correct sentiment. We are not helpless , was just explaining the factors that enabled their presence and their ability to control vast regions. People fear Isis, I'm sure if they arrived to your neighborhood u will do whatever u need to preserve your life and your family's life. It's easier to judge when your are not living amongst monsters that think it's their duty to get you on the "right" path and ready to kill you in the most inhumane manner if you reject their ideology. So I understand both the ones that keep their heads down and the ones that want to stand up for their beliefs. Until one lives that situation I think it's best to refrain from passing judgement. Phos, just a piece of advice, this world is going to hell because we have created labels and dehumanized one another. Not all Arabs hate Jews, just like not all Jews hate Arabs. I speak from experience. It's easier to attack and hate than to listen and attempt to see the similarities between all of us as humans. I think humanity and tolerance is what the world needs today not hate and over generalization.

But if you'd like me to play the villain then that's ok. As an Arab I blame the Jews for the crap coffee I had today. I think the Jews are messing with the regions food cause I'm here in the Middle East currently and seem to be constipated a lot lately. Oh and I blame the Jews for this unbelievable heat wave.
Is that better phos ?
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Old 25.09.2014, 16:13
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Re: Islamic State

How unfortunate that is the best conclusion you can come to - fatalism and nihilism. The Middle East has been locked into mental pattern enforced through continued oppression by the tyranny of its leaders; whether by secular government or religious leaders. I wonder if the people can even imagine anything different anymore. I never once said Arabs are locked into this thinking. But I will say they are responsible for their own thinking and actions. Humans have an innate ability to think differently anytime they want.

What you need in Iraq is not more bombs and weapons from the US in order to kill each other. You need a transformation. What you truly need is the freedom of thought and ideas. Accept or decline it at your own peril.
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Old 25.09.2014, 16:14
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Re: Islamic State

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I love seeing people call Phos out on all of the abject nonsense she writes. Gotta love facts.
Phos is a SHE?

Well, you live and learn I suppose.
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Old 25.09.2014, 16:45
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Re: Islamic State

ISIS exists due to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. There is not other cause. Prior to the Iraq invasion, both Iraq and Syria were stable countries with a very delicate religious mix. Iraq was run by a brutal dictator and Syria less so (at this early point Assad was not as brutal as the last 3 years have shown). Both countries were secular though and secular is a rare occurence in the Middle East.

After the invasion or Iraq, the entire delicate religious balance was upset and now the irony is that, through the incorrect link of the Saddam Hussein regime with 9/11, we have created a monster of a virtual terrorist state ; virtual in that it has no borders but its ideas are supported by a significant minority of Muslims in many countries.

It will take many decades to repair the damage created by this situation. Unfortunately, the US and allies need to completely destroy the ISIS network once and for all. But you cannot kill an idea. Expect many atrocities to follow ; especially in the West I feel sorry for the Muslim community as well but the answer lies from within it to persuade and stop young men with hatred from turning to ISIS.

Very real chance that this could start World War 3 ; a very much more dangerous situation than Ukraine, which looks like it could stabilise and improve, unlike the Middle East.
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Old 25.09.2014, 17:02
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Re: Islamic State

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ISIS exists due to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. There is not other cause. Prior to the Iraq invasion, both Iraq and Syria were stable countries with a very delicate religious mix. Iraq was run by a brutal dictator and Syria less so (at this early point Assad was not as brutal as the last 3 years have shown). Both countries were secular though and secular is a rare occurence in the Middle East.

After the invasion or Iraq, the entire delicate religious balance was upset and now the irony is that, through the incorrect link of the Saddam Hussein regime with 9/11, we have created a monster of a virtual terrorist state ; virtual in that it has no borders but its ideas are supported by a significant minority of Muslims in many countries.

It will take many decades to repair the damage created by this situation. Unfortunately, the US and allies need to completely destroy the ISIS network once and for all. But you cannot kill an idea. Expect many atrocities to follow ; especially in the West I feel sorry for the Muslim community as well but the answer lies from within it to persuade and stop young men with hatred from turning to ISIS.

Very real chance that this could start World War 3 ; a very much more dangerous situation than Ukraine, which looks like it could stabilise and improve, unlike the Middle East.
Don't forget the Nouri al Maliki government which alienated the Sunnis!

imho IS are just a more spectacular and media savvy version of Al Qaida. I don't think it would take much for the US to take them out militarily, its really about collateral damage.
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Old 25.09.2014, 17:13
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Re: Islamic State

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Phos is a SHE?

Well, you live and learn I suppose.
He... she... in this context I guess is doesn't really matter.
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Old 25.09.2014, 17:14
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Re: Islamic State

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ISIS exists due to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. There is not other cause.
Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad was active since 2000 I think.It is from this that the AQI came out, the front-runner for ISIS.Although I agree that the Iraqi invasion of 2003 provided the fuel, the ingredients were already present.
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Very real chance that this could start World War 3 ; a very much more dangerous situation than Ukraine, which looks like it could stabilise and improve, unlike the Middle East.
I won't go so far as to suggest that this can start WW3. For one, ISIS, for all its success, is a small group, not a coalition of nations. Second, some of the current world powers, Japan and China, for example, are virtually untouched, politically and economically, by the affairs in Iraq.
But I think this could be a long drawn war of attrition a la Afghanistan and The West will do better by sitting out and provide diplomatic, humanitarian aids than getting involved militarily.
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